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Can you rebuild in NY?
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islesfan
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Will you accept 2-3 years, which will be needed, of house cleaning, fumigating and salary cap cleansing, after Isiah is gone? Will you support the next team president and GM as long as they show that they have a clear plan to rebuild this franchise?
Yes
No
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TrueBlue
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2/19/2008  11:52 AM
Posted by misterearl:

TrueBlue - you must have some criteria to define "rebuilding".

I used making the playoffs as a criteria. Some might use winning a championship as a criteria. Still others would be happy simply to see a team of guys under 23 and call it a day. What is yours?

I ask again, for the purposes of making an informed assissment of how much time to expect, how many years elapsed for each of those franchises you list - between playoff appearances, while they were rebuilding?

San Antonio
New Jersey
Orlando
Phx
Utah
Hornets
Raptors

Thank You


You chose Atlanta and Chicago for a reason. I think you need to consider your audience more when posting. We're not dummies. Chicago was a bad example considering they rebuilt twice under two different GM's. You have to look at each rebuild process separately not combine them as you did.

Rebuilding IMO simply means finding/bringing in a player or group of players(usually younger but veterans can be included along with managing the cap to create possibilities) to build around who give you the best chance to win on any given night usually producing great results such as(and/or consecutive winning seasons/post-seasons/contention/championship(s)). This occurs usually amidst a transition in which a team moves away from a given situation/philosophy/player(s) to a new one. Time frame on this when compared to examples given is about a 2-3yr transition.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 02-19-2008 10:54 AM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
AUTOADVERT
misterearl
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2/19/2008  11:55 AM
>>As long as they play hard and leave it all on the court, you can rebuild here.

joec32033 - playing "hard" is a wonderful term, but difficult to measure in terms that people can agree on. Some players simply appear too graceful to play "hard". I would never describe Earl Monroe as playing "hard" but the brotha was as effective at what he did and was a winner. John Starks played "hard" but he also head-butted Reggie and went a stubborn 3-14 when it mattered most.

All I'm sayin' is that in NYC, where every move is scrutinized, and where Cablevisions bottom line depends on the bonus playoff revenue, the criteria MUST be making the playoffs.

The only thing you wanna leave on the court is a W
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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2/19/2008  11:56 AM
Trueblue - false

go down the list
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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2/19/2008  11:56 AM
Trueblue - false

go down the list
once a knick always a knick
nyk4ever
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2/19/2008  11:58 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

The key to rebuilding is to find one or two guys to build around. Once you have that you at least put yourself in position to have some good luck. But if you aren't in position to acquire that player than you are wasting your time. A high pick this year could be a start. Making a trade so that we can fight for an 8th seed at this point is counterproductive in my mind.

The Knicks never won a title with Ewing. But at least by acquiring him they always put themselves in position for success. That I can live with. The current situation of winning 23 and 33 games and not putting ourselves in position to acquire that superstar is excruciating.

I agree with you Bip.

To me, winning a championship isn't the only barometer to measure rebuilding by. Sure it's the goal of every franchise(atleast we think) but at the end of the year, only one team wins. I would measure the success of rebuilding on the merit if your team can contend. Obviously the first few years in rebuilding you aren't going to contend, but as long as there is a clear-cut plan in place that will allow your team to contend in the future, by getting the right personnel, then I think that's the right way to do it.

I think the Bulls of the late 90's were on the right track to rebuilding, it was just the impatience of Jerry Krause, who traded Artest, Brad Miller and Elton Brand all away. Paxson came in, cleaned up the mess that was left to him by Krause, after he traded those 3 and drafted very well and they were one trade away from truly making a mark by getting Kevin Garnett. They had there chance and they blew it.

It all depends on who is running your team. Having Jerry West or Jerry Colangelo is much different than having a guy like Billy Knight down in Atlanta who has made some horrendous drafting decisions, as well as Isiah Thomas who has traded away resources like no other.

It's always personnel, personnel, personnel.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
TrueBlue
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2/19/2008  12:00 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Trueblue - false

go down the list

What's false Earl?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
joec32033
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2/19/2008  12:03 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>>As long as they play hard and leave it all on the court, you can rebuild here.

joec32033 - playing "hard" is a wonderful term, but difficult to measure in terms that people can agree on. Some players simply appear too graceful to play "hard". I would never describe Earl Monroe as playing "hard" but the brotha was as effective at what he did and was a winner. John Starks played "hard" but he also head-butted Reggie and went a stubborn 3-14 when it mattered most.

All I'm sayin' is that in NYC, where every move is scrutinized, and where Cablevisions bottom line depends on the bonus playoff revenue, the criteria MUST be making the playoffs.

The only thing you wanna leave on the court is a W

You're talking cablevision, I am talking New York.

Will Cablevision allow a rebuilding no, probably not-even though Isiah has been ineffetively trying for 4 years now.

The poetic justice is the guy that they hired to win is the guy whose moves make the strongest argument that we need a rebuild.
~You can't run from who you are.~
Masterplan
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2/19/2008  12:06 PM
Posted by misterearl:

I ask again, for the purposes of making an informed assissment of how much time to expect, how many years elapsed for each of those franchises you list - between playoff appearances, while they were rebuilding?

come on, there's no set time it takes to rebuild. it's unsound to present it as "rebuild in chicago = 7 years, ergo in NYC it's 7 years times whatever." it all comes down to intelligent decisionmaking. are we drafting well? are our trades making sense and working out? are we acquiring players reasonably?

it doesn't matter how may years away the expected payoff should be. if we're clearly not handling those incremental "baby steps" right, we can call it like we see it. it's totally fair to judge isiah for his performance even if it would be unfair to expect a particular win total or playoff result by this point.

as for your "quick rebuild" question, how about boston? 04-05 playoffs (pretty much regulars before then, too), two years of suckitude, this year they've cashed in their assets and are the #1 in the league. just the first that came to my head.
franco12
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2/19/2008  12:09 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Just becuase GM's don't understand how to do their jobs doesn't mean that rebuilding can't be done quickly."

"MS - you stated the Bulls required 7 years. So far no one else has provided any examples of the number of years required to "rebuild" using a performance standard as the criteria.

Can you provide one NBA example of a "quick" rebuild? How many years did it take?

Just one.

I'd say Utah is the one example of a quick rebuild- from the time that Malone & Stocken retired/left to the time they put the current group out there in Boozer & Williams and have been winning games.

I don't recall- but didn't Utah have a long streak of play offs snapped by basically one year before they were back?

You also have to be careful with using teams like Atlanta as an example of a rebuild - because for many years, their ownership wanted to keep costs down.
MS
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2/19/2008  12:10 PM
The funny thing here is, the question in itself. Can you rebuild in NY?

We haven't had a winning record in six seasons, and we keep making the same mistakes, over and over again, Isiah might be the worst executive in all of sports. We are the worst run franchise in all major spots and are on pace to win less than 23 games.

Let's just use the Knicks as an example earl. Had isiah lottery protected his pick and stood firm on Curry we would be looking at one All-Star added to the line-up and possible one great defensive player. We would also be looking at cap space with an expiring Kurt Thomas instead of a broken down Q. Francis would have never been turned into Randolf and we would have had tradeable assets like Thomas/Channing Frye in a package for say a Ron Artest/Andre Miller etc.

But instead we don't have a good pg, sg, sf or center. Right now we have a three good bench players and 6 years of spinning our wheels. If you're not making the playoffs your rebuilding. Now we are behind

Miami, Toronoto, Washington, Cleveland, Boston, Bucks, Pistons, Bobcats, Magic, etc with no light in the tunnel for two more years which makes it 8 years of trying to win 40 games, just sad.
franco12
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2/19/2008  12:13 PM
Posted by MS:

The funny thing here is, the question in itself. Can you rebuild in NY?

We haven't had a winning record in six seasons, and we keep making the same mistakes, over and over again, Isiah might be the worst executive in all of sports. We are the worst run franchise in all major spots and are on pace to win less than 23 games.

Let's just use the Knicks as an example earl. Had isiah lottery protected his pick and stood firm on Curry we would be looking at one All-Star added to the line-up and possible one great defensive player. We would also be looking at cap space with an expiring Kurt Thomas instead of a broken down Q. Francis would have never been turned into Randolf and we would have had tradeable assets like Thomas/Channing Frye in a package for say a Ron Artest/Andre Miller etc.

But instead we don't have a good pg, sg, sf or center. Right now we have a three good bench players and 6 years of spinning our wheels. If you're not making the playoffs your rebuilding. Now we are behind

Miami, Toronoto, Washington, Cleveland, Boston, Bucks, Pistons, Bobcats, Magic, etc with no light in the tunnel for two more years which makes it 8 years of trying to win 40 games, just sad.

That is just classic.
Bonn1997
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2/19/2008  12:20 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by MS:

The funny thing here is, the question in itself. Can you rebuild in NY?

We haven't had a winning record in six seasons, and we keep making the same mistakes, over and over again, Isiah might be the worst executive in all of sports. We are the worst run franchise in all major spots and are on pace to win less than 23 games.

Let's just use the Knicks as an example earl. Had isiah lottery protected his pick and stood firm on Curry we would be looking at one All-Star added to the line-up and possible one great defensive player. We would also be looking at cap space with an expiring Kurt Thomas instead of a broken down Q. Francis would have never been turned into Randolf and we would have had tradeable assets like Thomas/Channing Frye in a package for say a Ron Artest/Andre Miller etc.

But instead we don't have a good pg, sg, sf or center. Right now we have a three good bench players and 6 years of spinning our wheels. If you're not making the playoffs your rebuilding. Now we are behind

Miami, Toronoto, Washington, Cleveland, Boston, Bucks, Pistons, Bobcats, Magic, etc with no light in the tunnel for two more years which makes it 8 years of trying to win 40 games, just sad.

That is just classic.

So we'll have a 12 man roster of excellent bench players by 2026. I knew Isiah had a plan after all!
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