Posted by King1:

We need to bring in winners and character guys. You can win with less talent if you play as a team and play hard. I really think it will take us 3 years before we can get better with all the bad contracts we have.

Great 2011 we'll be an 8th seed

It doesn't have to take 3 years. In the NBA things can turnaround VERY fast with the right decisions being made. Portland is an example of this as is New Orleans. I think we start with a Defensive Center like Thabeet and see if we can get another pick out of this draft for a PG or Wing player. This team loses games now, but it's entirely possible to change the culture here and start to win.

We've got some bad contracts but we can still look to add the right kind of players thru the draft. High character players with the right attitude towards playing team ball and defense. We're gonna have to look to trade in order to clear out players that don't fit with those ideals and if push comes to shove we should eat contracts like Big Snacks. It's time to cut the crap and get serious about changing the culture here, just like Portland did. Their team is back. The fans are back and their future looks bright.

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by bitty41:

Wait we're using a team whose currently 10th in their conference and 3rd in their division as the model for rebuilding? I like Portland and believe they are on the right path at this point but couldn't we at least look towards teams with established success as models for rebuilding like Dallas, Detroit, Phoenix, Utah?

LOL! u say u wanna use Phoenix as a role model on how to build a successful franchise & then rag on people when they suggest cap flexibility to make smart free agent signings & sensible trades along with draft picks is the way to go? how do u think they got Steve Nash & Amare Stoudamire to begin with? how did they land all those supporting role players they have on their team like Raja Bell & Boris Diaw? Nash & Bell were acquired via free agency, Amare via the draft & Diaw came to them along with 2 future 1st round picks in a trade for Joe Johnson.

Damn you all now you got him started! I mentioned a few teams Dallas, Detroit, and Utah who I would also look to when thinking of model management.

take a good close look at how those other teams built their teams too bitty... DAL got Dirk & Josh via the draft built around them w/other players acquired via draft like Devin Harris along w/supplemental trades to get guys like Jason Terry to fill holes they needed to be filled... UTA got Deron, AK47, Millsap & Brewer via draft & signed Boozer & Okur as free agents because they had the cap flexibility to do it... DET drafted Tayshaun, signed Chauncey as a FA,traded Grant Hill's big money contract in exchange for Ben Wallace & Chuck Atkins, traded Jerry Stackhouse for Rip Hamilton & made another trade for Rasheed & Mike James using a player they obtained in the Ben Wallace trade, Chucky Atkins, along w/a player whose draft rights they traded for in Zeljko Rebraca... not one of those teams built their success on being capped out to oblivion for the next 20 years & relying on trades for big money players that added nothing to their overall team balance to get there.

if u don't wanna debate w/me that's fine... but don't rag on other people for suggesting similar plans of action that those other teams followed to build their teams & then suggest u wanna emulate those teams going forward cuz it doesn't exactly add to your credibility.

[Edited by - TMS on 02-11-2008 5:22 PM]

Your again saying the same thing you have been saying for awhile. I get it the Knicks need to clear cap space but whats missing from your puzzle is the pieces. Its like you cleared the all the pieces off the table but have nothing to replace them. Thats why I think your theories are flawed. Because Isiah's biggest problem wasn't so much the money as it was his inability to evaluate talent properly. Meaning if the Knicks were spending 20 million on Jason Kidd instead of Marbury or Isiah went after someone like Joe Johnson instead of Jamal, or if he used someone like Al Jefferson as his low post center piece. Then we would be in business right now. But I think you put an entirely too low of an emphasis on talent and thats where your theories go awry. Like I said before even with a great draft pick this summer surrounding him with just Balkman, Chandler, Morris, Collins, and Robinson is still a pretty terrible team.

i am very realistic about our team's current situation, which is why i don't wanna make it worse with trades to acquire guys like Zach, who as i've said many times is a good player but didn't address any of our needs... seems to me you're in agreement on this so not sure why it was such a hard sell on you before.

i have no problem going after big money players, i don't know how many times i have to say it... the problem is when they don't fill any of the holes that need to be filled... we can't just keep acquiring talent without any regard to how that talent fits together to create a balanced team.

w/that draft pick we have, hopefully we can nab us a real talent to build around... obviously it's not written in stone we're gonna get one but at least there's the opportunity & potential to do so, unlike the path we were going along before which was trading away our youth & cap flexibility for players that didn't really fit our needs to begin with... i know i've said this over & over again so i apologize if i'm droning but i feel it's a valid point that you didn't really stop to consider.

players like Balkman & D Lee are guys i wanna hold onto because they can excel playing in any type of system alongside any types of players... i could care less about Chandler, Morris & Collins, they ain't doing jack for us to begin with so no big loss if they get traded away to me... Nate is a guy who's on the bubble, he brings some very good qualities that this team sorely lacks, but i'm not convinced yet that he can play the PG position the way we need him to in order to be the solid backup... 1 thing i don't wanna see is him playing the 2 & launching up 3's every game... i think the potential is there for him, but not sure he's ever gonna realize it, so if he stays i'm fine w/it & if not, i'm fine w/it too.

it's obvious we need to make a trade for a quality vet but at this point there's none out there that we can get that would make an appreciable difference on our squad, unless of course u can make that trade for Michael Redd like you said (which i'm not sure if u missed it but i was in favor of when people brought up the topic a few weeks back) or say a Jason Kidd (who we obviously aren't getting)... i just don't see why MIL would make that trade w/us for Zach as i consider Redd to be the better talent... we'd probably have to throw in D Lee & Balk to get that deal done while likely getting back Charlie V or Simmons, both of whom i know u can't stand, so what's the point once again?

right now we're stuck in quicksand w/no way out other than to wait til it all dries up, unless by some miracle someone walks along w/a stick to pull us out of it by taking some of the crap contracts off our hands & lightening our load... this is why i propose the trades i do, to see if there's some way we can get ourselves out of this mess, cuz right now the ship be sunk.

u mentioned those other teams you wanted to emulate... they didn't all just have a clean slate to build upon either... DAL was in pretty bad shape cap wise too but they made the smart deals they needed to make by unloading guys like Finley, Van Horn, Marquis Daniels, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, Juwan Howard (though he's back w/them now), etc... this isn't very much different than what i've been proposing for a while now... if there's a deal out there to unload some of our albatross contracts, we have to pursue it, cuz right now as currently constructed we stink, w/or w/o the vets, so why not go after the cap space & give ourselves some flexibility to make some deals & signings going forward if we can? i'm not only focusing on the cap space... i value talent first & foremost as long as that talent fits together nicely as a whole... if we can achieve that then who cares if we're maxed out?

hopefully what i'm saying doesn't sound so flawed to you now... it's not very different than what you want to see happen if u ask me.

****, sorry about the essay btw.

[Edited by - TMS on 02-11-2008 6:42 PM]

WOW - this is cool thread...
Is Isiah fired by any chance?
Are Knicks sold together with MSG to Time Warner?
Or may be private plane with Knicks starters lost in Bermuda Triangle?
looks like I missed some news...