Posted by bitty41:

Stop being so sensitive we all know how genius your rebuilding plans are

but it is that sarcastic tone and twisting that is really unfair. who said we want to build around role players? we just want to keep two good young players, that we will need down the road. I mean you act as if we are going to land this Lebron type of player and all of a sudden with all of this cap room, sign guys like balkman and lee for pennies on the dollar. Let me tell you, by time we get our hands on a star, guys like lee and balkman won't be attainable by the knicks. Let me ask you this. If lee was on the kings, or mavs, do you think the knicks would be able to attain such a player? can you pinpoint in the draft for me, a player with a midround pick(which we would be if we have a star leading us to 45 wins a year) that will be a double, double guy like lee? can you? if so, then you should get a job in the NBA, because there are about 10 teams that will be dying for your services. Cleveland, lakers, mavs, rockets, to name a few..

Posted by tkf:

Posted by bitty41:

Stop being so sensitive we all know how genius your rebuilding plans are

but it is that sarcastic tone and twisting that is really unfair. who said we want to build around role players? we just want to keep two good young players, that we will need down the road. I mean you act as if we are going to land this Lebron type of player and all of a sudden with all of this cap room, sign guys like balkman and lee for pennies on the dollar. Let me tell you, by time we get our hands on a star, guys like lee and balkman won't be attainable by the knicks. Let me ask you this. If lee was on the kings, or mavs, do you think the knicks would be able to attain such a player? can you pinpoint in the draft for me, a player with a midround pick(which we would be if we have a star leading us to 45 wins a year) that will be a double, double guy like lee? can you? if so, then you should get a job in the NBA, because there are about 10 teams that will be dying for your services. Cleveland, lakers, mavs, rockets, to name a few..

Okay lets engage in semantics here. You and TMS have said repeatedly that Balkman and Lee are the guys you want to keep. Maybe you feel I used the wrong terminolgy but essentially what you were saying is that you want those two guys to used as the foundation for any future team after Isiah. To which I responded with me thinking this is just another example of the sad state of affairs in Knickland.

What is the point of your questions? I've said repeatedly that its foolish for Knick fans to build their hope on getting a Lebron type player b/c in his case he's already on a 50 win team and will probably receive a blank check from Clev so it would be highly unlikely that he even seriously hits the open market.

Uh in terms of the double double guy even though you and TMS absolutely despise Randolph he is still a double double guy.

I'm not a bro first off secondly after all this mess all we can offer up for the hopes of our future is Balkman and Lee we must live in a very twisted world if we think thats a good starting point. I know you guys are big fans of guys making less then 5 million but if your trying to be a good team in this league your going to need to bring more to the table then a role player and a bench player.


So its not exactly ideal for a franchise starting point.

Francis is already of the books. The Francis for Zach trade was a good trade for a 'real' GM. First - Francis was owed 40 million dollars over 2 years - Randolph is owed 60 million for 4 years (including this year). Which means we are really paying Randolph only 20 million over the course of 4 years. Obviously - the Knicks were NOT going to buy out Francis -otherwise why do the trade?!?! So in short- we got rid of an injured player for a PF who is a consistent mid-range shooter and decent rebounder by essentially paying him 20 million over 4 years plus he is younger and provides key depth in the front court.
Even though Zbo has his flaws- he has improved over the course of the season , he is definitely passing more and is a good rebounder as well, he is trying more to play defense (note the increased number of steals recently). Anyway - with him in the front court - we are way less reliant on Curry to be the focal point and can switch him at center for spurts -allowing both Lee and Balkman to get more minutes. It's not our money per se- but more importantly - if it was a choice of having Francis on the bench for two years at 20M per- or Randolph on the floor averaging a double /double providing offense and rebounding for an extra 5 M/year extra and having Portland buy out Francis - why not. I think its a good deal - if you consider that we were really stuck with Francis.

Posted by jaydh:

^^

The reason it was not a good deal is because Randolph is known to create chemistry problems. On top of that, it prevents Lee from starting, prevents other players recently drafted(balk, chandler) from getting playing time, prevents any hope of getting under the cap anytime soon(maybe 2012). The trade was redundant. Randolph scores and rebounds, something we already have players for; give me defense, give me a shotblocker, give me hope.

Lee could very well start with Randolph granted this shouldn't be a long-term thing but for this season if you want to blame someone for Lee not starting blame Isiah not Zach. How is he taking Balk, Chandlder from not getting playing time considering he plays a different position? It was redundant this past summer but now that we've past that threshold and Curry has been in a permenant funk. So at this point if you trade both him and Randolph now your just replacing one weakness with another and the merrygoround continues

Does Lee play all his minutes at PF? Nope. He plays some SF, but if there is no Zach, it frees up minutes at SF.

Your not really connecting the dots here. I assume that your saying b/c Zach is here Lee now plays small forward which has a ripple affect Balk and Chandler's minutes. Okay thats just not true Lee very rarely has played small forward minutes this year. Again the reason why Balk's and Chandlers minutes are slashed aren't due to Zach they are due to Isiah.

Obviously the problem is bigger than Zach, but the Zach trade was flat out stupid. Maybe if our PF was our only weak spot and had trouble scoring and rebounding and didn't have a 1dimensional center that scores at a better % then it *might* have made sense

Your stating something that very few deny yes the Randolph trade made absolutely no sense. We were in desperate need of a small forward or shooter.

Posted by jaydh:

Posted by bitty41:

How is he taking Balk, Chandlder from not getting playing time considering he plays a different position?

Does Lee play all his minutes at PF? Nope. He plays some SF, but if there is no Zach, it frees up minutes at SF.

Posted by bitty41:

It was redundant this past summer but now that we've past that threshold and Curry has been in a permenant funk.

maybe he is in a funk because a redundant player has been brought in that limits his touches.

Obviously the problem is bigger than Zach, but the Zach trade was flat out stupid. Maybe if our PF was our only weak spot and had trouble scoring and rebounding and didn't have a 1dimensional center that scores at a better % then it *might* have made sense.

[Edited by - jaydh on 02-10-2008 2:02 PM]

There were so many over the summer who adored the Zach trade, stating we got over on the Blazers it isn't even funny. I think Zach takes a lot of heat now which isn't necessarily fair. The BUM oplayers on our roster were BUM players before Zach was traded for.

As for Lee- it is good to see him finally develop a 5-10 foot jumper. But generally - Randolph ends up playing center- and Lee PF on offense-while on defense Lee is asked to cover the center and Zbo the PF. The point is Zbo is generally playing C when the lineup has both Lee and Zbo. In addition- regardless of opinion - he is a consistent outside shooter, good rebounder and can occasionally take it to the hole (alas only occasionally). But - in all honesty - he is a better PF than Lee offensively- for one reason - he can get his own shot. Lee is more reliant on hustle plays, tip ins, offensive rebound put backs - all the type of points that come to a player - who is not regarded as worth guarding through out the set. If he was the primary option and was guarded or even double teamed -as much as Zbo - I have no doubt - you would see who the better PF really is. I am not saying Zbo is one of the best PFs in the league - far from it - but no doubt - he is better than Lee.

Agreed I have the same feeling about Z-bo he's not an elite player for a host of reasons but this constant blaming him for all thats gone wrong in Knickland from Curry's regression, to the losing, decrease in Lee's minutes, busted salary cap, does not rest on his shoulders but rather with Isiah Thomas. So you want to root out most of the Knicks problems start there.

This team had problems before he was here and will continue to have
problems even after he's gone as long as we keep using this re arranging of deck chairs on the titantic mentality. 1

There were so many over the summer who adored the Zach trade, stating we got over on the Blazers it isn't even funny. I think Zach takes a lot of heat now which isn't necessarily fair. The BUM oplayers on our roster were BUM players before Zach was traded for.

Exactly Zach didn't turn Curry into a softy, Q into Qbrick, turn Marbury AWOl, make Crawford shoot less then 40 percent etc.

Posted by bitty41:

Okay lets engage in semantics here. You and TMS have said repeatedly that Balkman and Lee are the guys you want to keep. Maybe you feel I used the wrong terminolgy but essentially what you were saying is that you want those two guys to used as the foundation for any future team after Isiah. To which I responded with me thinking this is just another example of the sad state of affairs in Knickland.

What is the point of your questions? I've said repeatedly that its foolish for Knick fans to build their hope on getting a Lebron type player b/c in his case he's already on a 50 win team and will probably receive a blank check from Clev so it would be highly unlikely that he even seriously hits the open market.

Uh in terms of the double double guy even though you and TMS absolutely despise Randolph he is still a double double guy.

once again bitty completely misses the point entirely... i think we need to implement a Reading Is Fundamental course on these forums... there's some around here who really need it.

saying we'd like to hold onto D Lee & Balkman & not throw them away to unload other contracts is essentially saying we consider those guys possible PARTS of the solution going forward & don't want to lose them... it is NOT saying we consider those guys the foundation to build AROUND... they are parts to build WITH around a franchise talent we can hopefully get in the draft using that lottery pick, you know, the same way teams like POR have done w/guys like Brandon Roy & now w/Greg Oden? like how the Hornets have done with Chris Paul? like how the Magic have done with Dwight Howard? like how the Suns have done with Amare Stoudamire? the list goes on... you notice not all of thsoe guys are #1 overall picks, so you can stop with your constant crying about how we're stupid to lay all our hopes on winning the draft lottery... who in the hell cares if none of those guys are Lebron? some of them are pretty damn close, & who's to say we can't get a player like that in the draft? there are very good players that come out of the draft every year... hell, the Mavs picked up Josh Howard late in the 1st round & the Warriors picked up Monta Ellis in the 2nd... think we couldn't use players like that on our team? then you supplement those picks w/SMART free agent signings that fill the holes we need to fill & help to balance out the roster... OR you go the other route & sign a proven franchise guy w/the cap space you have & then use the picks to supplement the roster that way... this is how you achieve team balance & effectively manage the cap... i know it's a foreign concept to you bitty, but there are teams in the NBA who've done this effectively over the years that have enjoyed success... the Mavs, Heat, Suns, Pistons just to name a few... but yeah, it's completely retarded to try & use draft picks & cap space to try & rebuild one's franchise... let's just sign up & trade for every defensively inept player in the league making a bloated contracts that fug our cap for the next 10 million years! that's the ticket! it's worked so damn well for us in the past!

why would any logically thinking basketball fan not think the draft would be a good way to build up your team & call that a ridiculous mentality to have? i guess understandable when that same fan looks at players like Zach Randolph as being the potential solution to a team's woes... i'm sorry if i don't get too excited about offensive stat accumulators who've done nothing to help their teams improve... u can sniff on his jockstrap all you want but it's not changing anyone's opinions about the guy around here... that was a stupid, stupid, stupid trade to make from the very beginning... so go ahead & post the next snit remark that completely misses the point cuz you have no case here... ur entire philosophy is built upon faulty logic to begin with.