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Re-examining the Zach Randolph trade for a sec.
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MS
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1/29/2008  10:18 AM
To bad Jordan already traded for Nazy and Sign Carroll. I would send Zach and Crawford down to the Bobcats for Richardson, at least he is an outside threat and plays some defense.....
AUTOADVERT
bitty41
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1/29/2008  10:41 AM
It seems that if Isiah was serious enough we could have attained Richardson this summer b/c GS gave him up for very little.
MS
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1/29/2008  10:49 AM
Not really they got a lottery pick and cleard 50 million off their cap which is very valuable and althoughed them to get room to sign their own guys and make a run at a someone else
jimimou
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1/29/2008  11:02 AM
Posted by MS:

Not really they got a lottery pick and cleard 50 million off their cap which is very valuable and althoughed them to get room to sign their own guys and make a run at a someone else



c'mon now MS, you know zeek isnt into clearing capspace w trades and he gives lottery picks, not gets them....let's let this thread die as randolph isnt worth this much press.
bitty41
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1/29/2008  11:08 AM
You think so? Talent wise GS got very little in return Brandon Wright has barely even left the bench and will probably stay on the bench as long as Barnes, Harrington, and Jackson are on the team. Money wise to me its all about what the guy brings to your team if he's valuable to a team' success then I could live with his contract. But in GS Nelson has spent his time acquiring like 5 players who do the same thing that Richardson does so he became expendable.
MS
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1/29/2008  11:56 AM
There was a lot of strong talent on the board which is why the trade was a strange one for the bobcats who would have been better off just going after Carter and taking Noah, however I think Noah would have been great for the warriors off the bench giving them additional size, rebounding and passing, Williams would have been great off the bench as well. Wright is a space cadet

Joakim Noah
Acie Law IV
Thaddeus Young
Julian Wright
Al Thornton
Rodney Stuckey
Sean Williams
bitty41
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1/29/2008  12:08 PM
Wait which Carter are you talking about b/c I hope it isn't Wince Carter. Its amazing that Knick fans continue to bring this guy's name in a conversation as being a good acquisition for a team. Assuming that you were talking about Vince.
franco12
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1/29/2008  12:13 PM
for everyone who has said positive things about the zach trade, could someone explain why we are on pace to a worse record than last year, with largely the same group of players?

Zach is a nice player- he can score, passes better than curry, rebounds way better than curry. But, he is attached to a horrendous, unmovable contract. And before he got here, we had rebounding (Lee) and low post scoring (Curry).

I think the bigger question is what other deals (like Artest) might have been available to Isiah for Francis/Frye?

Somehow, if we kept Frye & bought out Francis (or Marbury!), we'd actually have a better record and greater roster/cap flexibility.

But we're just idiot fans. I mean, if some of us idiots were the GM of the knicks, we'd be on pace to win 23 games, just like Isiah.
King1
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1/29/2008  12:33 PM
This year out of Zach, Eddy and David we are getting 40.7 and 23.2 rebounds per game. Last year we got 39.7 and 22.9 out of david, frye, and Eddy. We were actually better last year. So for 13 million we are getting 1 point and 1 rebound more than last year.
bitty41
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1/29/2008  12:37 PM
for everyone who has said positive things about the zach trade, could someone explain why we are on pace to a worse record than last year, with largely the same group of players?

Well if you have tunnel vision you can easily place the blame at Randolph's feet but if you read the papers in the months leading up to the season you would know that this team was going to hit a new low. Between the scandals and the usual Marbury-gate this team was going to be heading even more towards a downward spiral. Also take into account that most of these players Zach included had no defined roles throw-in wacky game plans those issues more then anything have caused the majority of the losses.


Also when are some fans going to make up their minds. Not defending ISiah but there is always 2 or 3 players that everyone really wants gone moreso then any other players on the roster. With the exception of Marbury Isiah has moved most of these guys. People wanted Mo Taylor, Jalen Rose, Steve Francis, Penny Hardaway and French Frye wasn't too popular towards the end either. So most of you are just advocating a slightly different version of the very same thing Isiah has been doing his entire tenure. B/c whenever you move these guys your going to have take back some bad parts whether it be the contract or the talent.

As Vdesai taught me buying out guys doesn't make his salary disappear off of your payroll so we're either stuck with paying a complete waste of a player or paying a guy who can contribute but is overpaid. So pick your poison.
King1
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1/29/2008  12:46 PM
Take the guys with good character that make less, then trade for a guy that makes 13 million and then hamstrings into making any other trades. That is IT fault no Z-Bo fault. We are barely better in the front court this year and added 13 million in salary.
bitty41
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1/29/2008  12:54 PM
King

Thats not always realistic and good character does not always make for a better player. Malik Rose is probably one of the most classiest and nicest guys in the league but he still is not a very good b-ball player unfortunately.

I created my very brilliant and thoughtful thread that the Knicks should just hold out for Malik's and Marbs contracts to expire in 2009 and not make anymore big trades. Maybe small deals that involve rookie contracts or draft picks but nothing that involves a contract thats bigger then a mid-level.
GodSaveTheKnicks
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1/29/2008  2:17 PM
In response to Finestrg..this is almost the same problem as the Curry trade.

Whether getting Curry was a mistake or not..

Why didn't it occur to Isiah that Chicago had NO LEVERAGE with Curry and his heart situation?

Both Portland and Chicago were clearly looking to dump both players and the Knicks bid on both like they had some kind of competition.

Mind boggling.
Posted by Finestrg:

I know there's nothing we can really do about it now but the fact of the matter is, this trade's 100% better for us if we had got back either Webster or Sergio Rodriguez along with Randolph instead of the useless dead weight of Dickau and Freddy Jones. I said it at the time. Can't believed we jumped the gun the way we did.

A) Portland was looking to unload Zach's contract at all costs - huge salary dump that's almost unheard of in the NBA now-a-days (name another team in the league that was prepared to take on Randolph's rediculous contract at that time even if it needed a power forward) and it opened up a spot for LaMarcus Aldridge - 2 things Portland was desperately trying to accomplish. Did Isiah actually think there were any other destinations Portland was prepared to send him? Isiah was the one holding the cards here, not Kevin Pritchard, and he did nothing with the leverage he had. ---- "Dan Dickau and Freddy Jones huh? No Webster? No Rodriguez? No thanks. No deal Pritch... We're OK with developing David Lee. Thanks for calling." It wouldn't have been too long before Pritchard called back to renegotiate something else...

B) The Blazers have such tremendous depth at both the wing and the point that they easily could've included one or the other in the deal with no problem. And you know Isiah had interest in Webster - Webster was part of the original rumors we were hearing. Just pisses me off that Isiah allowed himself to get played the way he did....

--------

Anyway, nobody else around here thinks Josh Shipp would make a nice 2-guard in the NBA? Definitely worth someone's late 1st rounder/early 2nd rounder IMO. Sergio Rodriguez and Portland's 2nd rounder that we turn into Josh Shipp for some package like Nate/Randolph Morris or Balkman/Morris is definitely something I could see happening if the Knicks ever came calling.





[Edited by - finestrg on 01-27-2008 04:25 AM]

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
iyamwutiam
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1/29/2008  2:54 PM
Posted by GodSaveTheKnicks:

In response to Finestrg..this is almost the same problem as the Curry trade.

Whether getting Curry was a mistake or not..

Why didn't it occur to Isiah that Chicago had NO LEVERAGE with Curry and his heart situation?

Both Portland and Chicago were clearly looking to dump both players and the Knicks bid on both like they had some kind of competition.

Mind boggling.
Posted by Finestrg:

I know there's nothing we can really do about it now but the fact of the matter is, this trade's 100% better for us if we had got back either Webster or Sergio Rodriguez along with Randolph instead of the useless dead weight of Dickau and Freddy Jones. I said it at the time. Can't believed we jumped the gun the way we did.

A) Portland was looking to unload Zach's contract at all costs - huge salary dump that's almost unheard of in the NBA now-a-days (name another team in the league that was prepared to take on Randolph's rediculous contract at that time even if it needed a power forward) and it opened up a spot for LaMarcus Aldridge - 2 things Portland was desperately trying to accomplish. Did Isiah actually think there were any other destinations Portland was prepared to send him? Isiah was the one holding the cards here, not Kevin Pritchard, and he did nothing with the leverage he had. ---- "Dan Dickau and Freddy Jones huh? No Webster? No Rodriguez? No thanks. No deal Pritch... We're OK with developing David Lee. Thanks for calling." It wouldn't have been too long before Pritchard called back to renegotiate something else...

B) The Blazers have such tremendous depth at both the wing and the point that they easily could've included one or the other in the deal with no problem. And you know Isiah had interest in Webster - Webster was part of the original rumors we were hearing. Just pisses me off that Isiah allowed himself to get played the way he did....

--------

Anyway, nobody else around here thinks Josh Shipp would make a nice 2-guard in the NBA? Definitely worth someone's late 1st rounder/early 2nd rounder IMO. Sergio Rodriguez and Portland's 2nd rounder that we turn into Josh Shipp for some package like Nate/Randolph Morris or Balkman/Morris is definitely something I could see happening if the Knicks ever came calling.





[Edited by - finestrg on 01-27-2008 04:25 AM]


I agree that Randolph's contract was quite onerous and that with the perception that Randolph could get into trouble off the court made it difficult to mave the contract. In additin - unlike Francis - a buy out was not in the cards- as it would have been much more for Randolph then Francis.

That being said- this is why the Knicks were the only suitors for Randolph - and why they didn't have the leverage as many people would like to assume. The Knicks were compelled to take this deal -as Portland was the only team that would agree to take Steve Francis. Moving Steve Francis was the right decision as we can see that heis injured and ineffective post buy out in his 'hometown' of Houston- and so -moving him asap -was good for the team and the payroll. It was a risk - that appears to have turned out a slight positive if not a lateral move with no downside.

Yes - the Knicks have an additional 20 million on their payroll (42M for Frnacis versus 60M for Randolph)- but you do get a younger player and the 20 million spread out over 4 years and who is better than Channing Frye as well (who will also make an additional 5-6 M -had he stayed with the Knicks). So in the end - you have taken on an additional 10-12 Million in salary spread out over 4 years and got to expiring contracts in Dickau and Fred Jones.
GodSaveTheKnicks
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1/29/2008  3:50 PM
valid points..

the randolph trade wasn't as horrendous as the curry trade, though i still think we could have gotten a little bit more out of portland though as they have a lot of good young players.

i would love to see one trade though where we laugh at the OTHER team's GM.

Posted by iyamwutiam:
Posted by GodSaveTheKnicks:

In response to Finestrg..this is almost the same problem as the Curry trade.

Whether getting Curry was a mistake or not..

Why didn't it occur to Isiah that Chicago had NO LEVERAGE with Curry and his heart situation?

Both Portland and Chicago were clearly looking to dump both players and the Knicks bid on both like they had some kind of competition.

Mind boggling.
Posted by Finestrg:

I know there's nothing we can really do about it now but the fact of the matter is, this trade's 100% better for us if we had got back either Webster or Sergio Rodriguez along with Randolph instead of the useless dead weight of Dickau and Freddy Jones. I said it at the time. Can't believed we jumped the gun the way we did.

A) Portland was looking to unload Zach's contract at all costs - huge salary dump that's almost unheard of in the NBA now-a-days (name another team in the league that was prepared to take on Randolph's rediculous contract at that time even if it needed a power forward) and it opened up a spot for LaMarcus Aldridge - 2 things Portland was desperately trying to accomplish. Did Isiah actually think there were any other destinations Portland was prepared to send him? Isiah was the one holding the cards here, not Kevin Pritchard, and he did nothing with the leverage he had. ---- "Dan Dickau and Freddy Jones huh? No Webster? No Rodriguez? No thanks. No deal Pritch... We're OK with developing David Lee. Thanks for calling." It wouldn't have been too long before Pritchard called back to renegotiate something else...

B) The Blazers have such tremendous depth at both the wing and the point that they easily could've included one or the other in the deal with no problem. And you know Isiah had interest in Webster - Webster was part of the original rumors we were hearing. Just pisses me off that Isiah allowed himself to get played the way he did....

--------

Anyway, nobody else around here thinks Josh Shipp would make a nice 2-guard in the NBA? Definitely worth someone's late 1st rounder/early 2nd rounder IMO. Sergio Rodriguez and Portland's 2nd rounder that we turn into Josh Shipp for some package like Nate/Randolph Morris or Balkman/Morris is definitely something I could see happening if the Knicks ever came calling.





[Edited by - finestrg on 01-27-2008 04:25 AM]


I agree that Randolph's contract was quite onerous and that with the perception that Randolph could get into trouble off the court made it difficult to mave the contract. In additin - unlike Francis - a buy out was not in the cards- as it would have been much more for Randolph then Francis.

That being said- this is why the Knicks were the only suitors for Randolph - and why they didn't have the leverage as many people would like to assume. The Knicks were compelled to take this deal -as Portland was the only team that would agree to take Steve Francis. Moving Steve Francis was the right decision as we can see that heis injured and ineffective post buy out in his 'hometown' of Houston- and so -moving him asap -was good for the team and the payroll. It was a risk - that appears to have turned out a slight positive if not a lateral move with no downside.

Yes - the Knicks have an additional 20 million on their payroll (42M for Frnacis versus 60M for Randolph)- but you do get a younger player and the 20 million spread out over 4 years and who is better than Channing Frye as well (who will also make an additional 5-6 M -had he stayed with the Knicks). So in the end - you have taken on an additional 10-12 Million in salary spread out over 4 years and got to expiring contracts in Dickau and Fred Jones.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
King1
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1/29/2008  5:15 PM
Bitty I agree with that we are paying 13 million for 1 rebound and 1 more point per game in the frontcourt. The first thing a GM will do is trade a frontcourt player to fill in holes.
WOODMANnYk
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1/29/2008  9:10 PM
Posted by JesseDark:
Posted by WOODMANnYk:

The Zach trade should've never happened. That was not the position desperately needing an upgrade. It was the small forward spot. Despite the reputation of RON Ron, he would've made much sense.

If you knew that Curry had one of his best seasons of his career last yr then why would you add Randolph into the mix??? It made no sense!

To play devil's advocate you could say why bother trade for Ron Ron when it looks like now we will get him for nothing when he walks.

If thats the case then at least you can grow with wilson chandler into the SF posiition.
The Future. GO KNICKS!
TMS
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1/30/2008  12:01 AM
Posted by bitty41:

in the next 2 years the Knicks will at the very least have nearly 30 mil coming off the books.

not if Isiah has anything to say about it.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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