Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by iyamwutiam:

Oh btw - when he knew his time was going to be up - he left the Knicks a few presents:

On July 23, 2003 Layden traded guard Latrell Sprewell with two years remaining on his contract to the Minnesota Timberwolves as part of a four-team trade that also included interactions with the 76ers and Hawks. In return, the Knicks acquired veteran forward Keith Van Horn. Van Horn, an integral part of the New Jersey Nets 2002 eastern conference title, played in only 47 games for New York in just one season, averaging 16.4 points and 7.3 rebounds-per-game. Van Horn's salary of 3-years still remaining on a 6-year $73 Million contract that he signed as a member of the Nets, put the Knicks further over the salary cap.

The last transaction of notable implications that Layden made as general manager came on October 9, when he signed the 37 year old center Dikembe Mutombo to a 2-year, $8.5 Million contract.

Yeah - your right - it's ALL Isiah's fault - and all of us - who have never had a single day in a job as a player, coach (or coached the all-star team) , taken a team to the playoffs 3 straight years etc - we all know - that Isiah is terribel - any white guy -like McHale/ Mullin (check his record with Adonal Foyle/Dampier/etc etc and signings for years) are way better than Isiah - who in one year turned the Knicks roster to its youngest since 1999.

yeah - after all - we pay so much attention to whats going on- I wonder why we didn't get the job and extension -huh :)

Who cares if the roster is young if its filled with players that can't play. Oh yeah, race has nothing to do with this, much to your chagrin.

When will the standard by which we judged be determined by "WINS". I'll say it yet again. Overall our fan base has "LOW to NO STANDARDS". It lowers each yr I SAY UGH remains here.

Posted by iyamwutiam:

That was Frank Layden (HIS FATHER) - so you can see - that meritocracy is alive and well in the professional sports as well as politics. Layden signed a 7 year 28 million dollar Guaranteed contract in 1999. Not bad for a guy who got his job via nepotism. That indexed for real inflation would be a 7 year deal for 80 million dollars when Isiah signed on!! Who says black men don't get a fair shot at management - people are so willing to belive that there is such a thing as racism today -for no reason at all.

In addition - he did an outstanding job of trading Camby/F Williams and the number seven pick (Nene-who is still hurt to this day) for I will be injured and unable to play for atleast 3 years McDyess -and it was NO secret that McDyess was coming off micro-fracture surgery of his knees.

In 3 short years this is the salary situation he left for the Knicks fans:

Allan Houston $14,343,750 7-yr; 100.41M 2006-07
Antonio McDyess $12,600,000 6-yr; 67.5M 2003-04
Latrell Sprewell $11,937,500 5-yr ;61.9M 2003-04 (p)
Shandon Anderson $6,100,000 6-yr; 42.0M 2006-07
Charlie Ward $5,570,000 6-yr; 28.0M + 2002-03 (p)
Howard Eisley $5,312,500 7-yr; 41.0M 2005-06 (t)
Clarence Weatherspoon $4,991,800 5-yr; 27.23M 2005-06
Kurt Thomas $4,903,750 3-yr; 13.0M 2003-04 (t)
Travis Knight $4,000,000 7-yr; 22.0M 2003-04
Othella Harrington $2,700,000 7-yr; 17.33M 2004-05
Michael Doleac $1,400,000 2-yr; 3.00M 2003-04
Frank Williams $832,560 4-yr; 4.40M 2004-05 (t)
Mark Pope $637,435 1-yr; 637,435 2002-03
Lee Nailon $587,435 1-yr; 587,435 2002-03
Lavor Postell $587,435 2-yr; 1.05M

Notice -how the Utah connection of Anderson and Eisley is tied up for 70 million dollars. In as little as 3 years -our boy (my pop is a legend cause he drafted Malone and Stockton) our boy racked up over 300 million dollars in salary - to future hall of famers that just abound on this roster !!!

Of course his draft picks were even better- Lavar Postel, Lampje, Vujanic, F Williams- I mean we all know these players turned ot to be as good as Gilbert Arenas, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard- so you can't say he didn't know how to evaluate player personnel. The guy was a genius - he so potential in people that no one did - including the entire NBA, D-League and the European league. Amazing eye for talent for sure.

Posted by iyamwutiam:

Overall- you are short sighted and have no sense of context. The roster Isiah got was burgeoning with overpaid, under-performing players - to say that Anderson and Wesley remotely deserved 70 M dollar pay out is absur. Van Horne same thing- I would any day have a procen double/double of Randolph than the 'team' guy who never helped anyone win anything Van Horne -who was grossly overpaid for what he was - another in a long list of Troy Murphy, Austin Croshere's - they could not play defense - and never averaged a double/double for 4/5 years they got starter minutes.

The future is coming :
atleast 3 young players that people outside of the knicks are truly interested in - Lee/Robinson and Balkman. Definitely Chandler joins that list next year. Two front court players who are both under 27 -one led two different teams as a leading scorer and FG% (and no its not Randolph), the other as mentioned before averaged a double/double for 4 straight years in the NBA - not JV team in the suburbs or some myhtical private gym league.


The average age of this team has gone down from 32 to 26- and is going to get younger when Marbury and Malik rose are gone! By 2010 - you will have two expiring contracts worth 27 million and your 2009 draft pick who should be player - even if he is as good as a Channig Frye - it STILL makes the team better.

You have depth at PF (lee/Randolph)/SF(Jeffires/Balkman) and SG (Crawford/Robinson) and a center who is capable of scoring on 85 percentof the centers in the NBA for atleast 20 points a nite-that is a fact -as he proved last year.

Name one member of the 2003 team that entire teams planned on double/triple teaming !!

That being said - there have been bumps - Marbury - never was the leader he promised to be, Q Rich - was a complete bust- his sole job was to hit the 3 or outside wide open jumper - to prevent undue pressure onthe front court.

I also conend - that those with some sense of pragmatism would have to attribute the Jalen Rose/Steve Francis?Jerome James signing mainly to Larry Brown. You don't make someone the highest paid coach in the NBA and not allow him to bring in his veterans or defensive players (James/ Jalen Rose/Antonio Davis and of course Steve Francis). Note- Francis/Marbury an Rose/Crawford- are virtually the same kind of players and there is no doubt - that LB brought them on - even if Isiah Thomas took the fall for them. LB did not just et fired for the a SINGLE 24 win season - he got fired because e screwed the Knicks salary cap positon even more. There would have been no necessity for a Randolph trade - if the Knicks were not potentially faced with 70 million dollars of buy out (30 for J. Rose - thats a fact -google it and see - its in the NYT). So instead of forking over another 40 million for the buy out of francis - they gave him to Paul Allen - who bought Francis out and essentially asked to be rid of Randolph and get frye in return. The rest of the players were basically salary fodder.

Anyway - you are to busy having all the answers to know if your even answering the question in an honest, meaningful way.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by SlimPack:

Posted by iyamwutiam:

Overall- you are short sighted and have no sense of context. The roster Isiah got was burgeoning with overpaid, under-performing players - to say that Anderson and Wesley remotely deserved 70 M dollar pay out is absur. Van Horne same thing- I would any day have a procen double/double of Randolph than the 'team' guy who never helped anyone win anything Van Horne -who was grossly overpaid for what he was - another in a long list of Troy Murphy, Austin Croshere's - they could not play defense - and never averaged a double/double for 4/5 years they got starter minutes.

The future is coming :
atleast 3 young players that people outside of the knicks are truly interested in - Lee/Robinson and Balkman. Definitely Chandler joins that list next year. Two front court players who are both under 27 -one led two different teams as a leading scorer and FG% (and no its not Randolph), the other as mentioned before averaged a double/double for 4 straight years in the NBA - not JV team in the suburbs or some myhtical private gym league.


The average age of this team has gone down from 32 to 26- and is going to get younger when Marbury and Malik rose are gone! By 2010 - you will have two expiring contracts worth 27 million and your 2009 draft pick who should be player - even if he is as good as a Channig Frye - it STILL makes the team better.

You have depth at PF (lee/Randolph)/SF(Jeffires/Balkman) and SG (Crawford/Robinson) and a center who is capable of scoring on 85 percentof the centers in the NBA for atleast 20 points a nite-that is a fact -as he proved last year.

Name one member of the 2003 team that entire teams planned on double/triple teaming !!

That being said - there have been bumps - Marbury - never was the leader he promised to be, Q Rich - was a complete bust- his sole job was to hit the 3 or outside wide open jumper - to prevent undue pressure onthe front court.

I also conend - that those with some sense of pragmatism would have to attribute the Jalen Rose/Steve Francis?Jerome James signing mainly to Larry Brown. You don't make someone the highest paid coach in the NBA and not allow him to bring in his veterans or defensive players (James/ Jalen Rose/Antonio Davis and of course Steve Francis). Note- Francis/Marbury an Rose/Crawford- are virtually the same kind of players and there is no doubt - that LB brought them on - even if Isiah Thomas took the fall for them. LB did not just et fired for the a SINGLE 24 win season - he got fired because e screwed the Knicks salary cap positon even more. There would have been no necessity for a Randolph trade - if the Knicks were not potentially faced with 70 million dollars of buy out (30 for J. Rose - thats a fact -google it and see - its in the NYT). So instead of forking over another 40 million for the buy out of francis - they gave him to Paul Allen - who bought Francis out and essentially asked to be rid of Randolph and get frye in return. The rest of the players were basically salary fodder.

Anyway - you are to busy having all the answers to know if your even answering the question in an honest, meaningful way.

I have no idea what the point of this post is even supposed be. If it was to prove that Isiah is a better manager than Layden then I guess you could say that, although I wouldn't say by much. Also I'll say that having young overpaid underperformers isn't really better than having old overpaid underperformers. But more importantly, what was the point of that post?

The point was to tell us how great our team's future is!

Posted by iyamwutiam:

Slimpack
I was answering the post and not you specifically. The psot is What is this is not all Isiah's doing-!
I think he has a point- and I have mentioned in other posts:
There is only one reason a guy like Isiah gets this job - to be the fall guy. He dutifully played along - Marbury (see my other posts-since I only joined today- it won't be too onerous), Larry Brown, Wilkens. If it weren't for Curry, Lee, Robinson and Balkman panning out (try finding any other team - that had 3 draft picks in the bottom 5 of the draft not only make the team but be contributors)- any team in the NBA - google is at your disposal my friend and I look forward to be corrected.

As for the wine and water- puh-lease- gimme a break-
How do you match the top 4 picks in the WHOLE draft against the bottom 5?/ Yeah thats 'really' fair and so sensible. Man - with your level headed and fair evaluation - I can see why you thik the Knicks would be champions over nite.

Posted by iyamwutiam:

Scott Layden was an exec with Utah at the time and is usually given credit for drafting Stockton and Malone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Layden

Again - i will correct you --
that was FRANK LAYDEN - his father. I will let you do your own google quest - so you can find out for yourself - who Layden drafted in all the years he was a GM for both teams. And bTW - please feel free to write back on all of his wonderful picks- I am sure it will anyday beat Isiah's .

Posted by oohah:

iyamwutiam -- I want to thank you for coming in and providing some historical context to offset the "hysterical context" that pervades this forum.

You did get a couple of facts wrong, but the overall thrust of your argument should be well received by anyone who was actually following the Knicks and is old enough to remember 7 years back: Isiah took over a team that was falling off a cliff. He did not ruin a good team. He did not push it off of the cliff. He's been trying like hell to pull it back, but he has screwed up many times.

The team Isiah took over was capped out and not getting under it anytime soon because of Houston's contract. The core of the team was all heading for retirement with the exception of Kurt Thomas.

Yes, Isiah tried to go the quick-fix route and he has to take a lot of the blame. If people don't realize that Dolan is the driving force behind that approach they probably haven't been watching. Meanwhile, those who espouse "breaking it down" will list all of the quick fixes Isiah missed out on if he GM'ed perfectly. And lament his not fixing it quick. Then they will tell you all the quick fixes that should be made now, starting with the ultimate quick fix of a new GM who will of course not try to make any quick fixes except the perfect ones in their fantasy land.

***

Anybody who takes over from Isiah will have a lot easier job than he was handed: This team can get under the cap now if they choose that route (Unlikely). This team has tradeable some assets that another team might actually want.

Patience is a virtue. In New York, it is often preached but rarely practiced.

***

iyamwutiam, A fair warning to you. Designated forum hard-on "Islesfan" already has a hard on for you. He really is not here as a basketball fan, he is a troll. As you can see, he has already violated forum rules by calling you an idiot even though you have not engaged him, and I think he should be reprimanded.

"Islesfan", you're out of line. Stop being an ass for once in your life.

iyamwutiam, if you continue to post here and attempt to provide context of what Isiah stepped into, rather tearing at him, "Islesfan" will follow you around like a rabid poodle calling you names and trying to bury you in simple-mindedness, because he has very little knowledge of the game. He simply has a disturbing "Mark David Chapman-esque" homoerotic fixation on Isiah Thomas that is a little scary.

Also, you should get ready to be called names by many others because extremism is generally more accepted than a level-headed view of what is and what was.

oohah

aw, isles ain't any worse than the lovers/stalkers (earl, papa, rembee, etc) who attacked anyone who had a negative comment about the job zeke's done. let's see if iyamwutiam can back up some of his statements when they’re challenged. fair game to him.