Posted by BRIGGS:

for Hilton Armstrong? They are not using him much and I think if we put him next to Curry and have him concentrate on defense rebounding and blocked shots and move Randolph to the 6th man we might be better off.

Uh let me guess, he's from the univ of conneticut

Posted by Anji:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Anji:

Could we take out Nate and insert Chandler???

we'll need to hold onto Chandler if we're giving up Balkman... Nate's superfluous to our needs... he's been playing well of late so it's probably a good idea to sell high while he has any value at all... if Hilton Armstrong can provide the defense & shotblocking up front that we are sorely missing, then i'm all for this trade... Zach would ever accept or be happy in a 6th man role though, so u know he'd be a disruptive force if you ever made this move.

Armstrong hasn't raised his trade value either. I don't want to give up Nate for an unproven guy, while it's obivous that if chandler was going to be great, he would be starting over Q and JJ2 already. Chandler is probably going to be a serviceable smallforward, but the knicks we probably need a franchise small forward.

Isiah doesn't play rookies, most old schooled coaches don't play rookies.

They make less money than his starters and Jeffries so why would Isiah start chandler?

morris is just as good as this guy so what is the oint

so can morris

Posted by Siar617:

so can morris

Armtstrong is a better prospect imo. Armstrong has much better foorwork out on the perimeter defensively, is a more explosive leaper around the rim in terms of first and second jump, is a better shot blocker is more athletic. I'd take Armtstrong over Randolph.

Posted by Siar617:

so can morris

Hey you know what Siar, if you're saying let's give Morris a shot I'm totally with you. While I don't think he has anywhere near the athletic ability or skill level of Armstrong, we still should be playing the guy to see what he's got. I've been saying it since we acquired him.

He's a big presence at 6'10"-6'11", 260 and although he's a little slow afoot, he's got soft hands and a nice little shooting touch inside. Plus he showed at Kentucky and in the summer league that he can rebound a little and block a shot. Give him a shot. If anything, it'll give teams a body of work to draw some conclusions from on whether or not they think he can play and whether or not they might want any of those guys back in a trade.

Bottom line is I'm with you guys on trying to work trades without giving up on Lee. Of course you try a Nate/Balkman/Morris for Armstrong first to see if it's enough. And the more these guys play and show something the better chance we have of pulling off a deal w/o including Lee. PLAY THESE GUYS!!!!!!!! No question. What else have we got to lose. At least we'll get to see if they can help us, first and foremost.

I just think that at the end of the day, teams are gonna want David Lee and the Knicks have got to ask themselves how much better they think Lee will really become. What he supplies - energy, plus rebounding, smart play, good passing - he does extremely well. And there's plenty of teams that can use that down the stretch. But is he honestly a guy that you want to see the Knicks deem untouchable? Is he really THE guy you want to see the Knicks build around? A guy that has future 20/10 production or 'future all-star' written all over him? What have you guys seen that's shown you that??? Last night for example, Isiah decides to sit Curry and Zach for lack of effort. Lee gets 35 minutes. What happens? Lee gives his usual hard-nosed effort that results in his customary 10 rebounds AND..... Chris Bosh goes off for a career night against us in yet another painful home loss.

Is Lee even a guy you say, "hey what's up with Lee, he should be playing a lot better"? Of course not. Nobody out there even thought he'd be this good. I certainly didn't. And again, I'M NOT BEING A HATER - I LOVE LEE!!! I'm just trying to be realistic. I don't think he even starts on half the teams out there, to be honest. He's an excellent reserve but let's not lose sight of how good guys are just because they play for us.

If the Knicks have an opportunity to re-shape this team for the future, "lay the foundation and the concrete" like this dope Isiah likes to say, by landing a player, players or draft picks that hopefully are (1) younger than Lee and (2) might have more overall potential down the road and they don't do it for Lee because the Knicks think he's "untouchable," that's bull****. Although there are plenty of teams out there that could use Lee and what he brings, there's also plenty of teams out there that already have similar players. Take a look at these similar role players throughout the league and tell me if any of them should be considered untouchables or foundation guys by their teams:

Glen Davis - Celtics
Jackie Butler - Houston
Josh Boone - Nets
Stromile Swift - Grizzlies
Louis Amundson - 76ers
Hilton Armstrong - Hornets
Melvin Ely - Hornets
Anderson Varejao - Cavs
Cedric Simmons - Cavs
Fabricio Oberto - Spurs
Matt Bonner - Spurs
Jason Maxiell - Pistons
Michael Ruffin - Bucks
Nene - Nuggets
Steven Hunter - Nuggets
Shelden Williams - Hawks
Juwan Howard - T-Wolves
Wayne Simien - T-Wolves
Ryan Gomes - T-Wolves
Sean May - Bobcats
Othella Harrington - Bobcats
Udonis Haslem - Heat
Alexander Johnson - Heat
Josh McRoberts - Blazers
Channing Frye - Blazers
Maurice Evans - Magic
Tony Battie - Magic
Bo Outlaw - Magic
James Augustine - Magic
Adonal Foyle - Magic
Kurt Thomas - Sonics
Chris Wilcox - Sonics
Nick Collison - Sonics
Johan Petro - Sonics
Robert Swift - Sonics
Etan Thomas - Wizards
Brandon Haywood - Wizards
Darius Songaila - Wizards
Andray Blatche - Wizards
Jarron Collins - Jazz
Paul Millsap - Jazz
Brian Skinner - Suns
Andris Biedrins - Warriors
Stephane Lasme - Warriors
Chris Kaman - Clippers
Paul Davis - Clippers
Kwame Brown - Lakers
Chris Mihm - Lakers
Ronny Turiaf - Lakers
Mikki Moore - Kings
Kenny Thomas - Kings
Spencer Hawes - Kings
Justin Williams - Kings?

The moral of this story is DO NOT EVER BE AFRAID to deal David Lee to better this team's future!

Posted by bigbeast:

Definitely take a shot at Armstrong. If you take a look at what Boone is doing for NJ, it'll give you an idea of what Armstrong is capable of. In fact, Armstrong is a little more athletic than Boone and ws a better prospect in my opinion. Armstrong could be a Tyson Chandler type player (not saying he will be as good) but similar in style.

Can play PF and some Center for us so he and Lee can play together.

[Edited by - bigbeast on 12-01-2008 1:45 PM]

Only difference in NJ Boone has J Kidd to make him look good.

in N.O Armstrong has Chris Paul who knows what to do as a leader.


Bring these players to the knicks and there is no pg leader to help transition to the league .

Posted by Vmart:

The Knicks shouldn't make any moves right now unless it nets them some draft picks. I'm willing to start over again and do this thing right. My plan for the Knicks is to accumulate draft picks from other teams and get a new look team going into next year.

My first step as soon as the season ends is to send crawford, Lee and Balkman to Sac town for a resigned Artest.

Second step is to get Beasley in the draft.

Third step is to get Zach randolph traded for another first round pick and take Bayless with the pick.

fourth step is to trade Nate and expiring deals for another mid first round pick and take Jason Thompson. We need a shot blocking force at PF.

Fifth step get rid of Marbury buy him out so you know his contract is going to expire at the end.

Next year is going to be rough year but the foundation of the knicks will be set and with a good GM and a coach who knows defensive basketball the Knicks will make strides as the year progresses.

Stating lineup:

Bayless pg
Artest sg
Curry c
Thompson pf
Beasley sf

I want draft picks aswell, but there isn't a line of teams willing to offer up first round picks for our garbage. Getting young players who aren't getting much time (Marcus Williams, Hilton Armstrong etc.) is similar to getting draft picks.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Finestrg:
And TMS, give some Knick fans a little credit. People in the NY area know this guy, he played a lot of his college games at the Garden. You'd be suprised, a lot of knowledgeable Knick fans would be happy with a Lee/Collins for Armstrong and their 1st rounder. That's a good solid trade for New Orleans right now and a steal for the Knicks in a year or two from now.

i didn't come close to suggesting u didn't know enough about Armstrong, but the fact remains the Knick fans love D Lee & there'd be a huge fan backlash if you gave him up in a deal unless you were getting back a legit impact player... Armstrong is completely unproven in this league while D Lee is a legit double double guy right now... being picked 12th overall does suggest he's got some good upside but he wouldn't be the 1st player ever selected in the lottery to turn out to be a bust... i'm not suggesting that he will, but that's just not a smart trade to make IMO... if in your mind that makes me an unknowledgable Knick fan, then so be it.

I didn't mean to suggest that you're not a knowledgeable Knick fan in any way - on the contrary, you're one of the more knowledgeable fans on this board, hands down. Always enjoy hearing your take on something. And I respect your opinion on this subject - dealing Lee would probably have a certain degree of backlash, you're right. He is probably our most popular player. Trust me, I know I'm in the minority on this one. I'm just fully, fully convinced that the whole thing should be broken down at this point, starting with Isiah's removal ASAP. Removing Isiah first is key, as he still believes in this thing he's put together and will continue to defend it and try to add to it - and that's no longer the way to go. This current roster will show glimpses of hope ever now and then, like the nice win in Chicago a few games back which I normally would've gotten really psyched over, but after that game I didn't feel excitement, pride, enjoyment.....I felt nothing. I was happy for the guys a little I guess as they've been through a lot, but in the end, as we've seen in the few games since that win, this team is horrendous and will never add up to anything remotely resembling winning basketball. The whole thing is one big lost cause.

Right now I say break it all down. Hopefully we land a top 3 pick in the draft and that guy turns out to be the guy we can eventually build around. In the mean time, start tearing it all down and accumulate as many young pieces as possible. This thing isn't gonna fix itself over night. It's gonna take some time & a lot of luck to get this thing back to respectability. And if dealing Lee helps us start to accomplish that, I'm all for it. 100%. What's the use in keeping a great role player on a team that can't utilize that role to win? If I thought we could really fetch something nice in return for Curry, Crawford, Q, etc... I'd say, yeah, let's hold on to Lee. He's valuable. But we aren't gonna get anything for those other guys. Maybe a mid-level draft pick or two, maybe a young up-and-coming player on a team that has no use for that player right now. If we're lucky. Lee's the only one who can really get us something really decent - and if you put that together along with whatever else we might be able to get for a Curry, Crawford, etc... we might eventually have something to cheer for again and be proud of in about 5 years.

My humble opinion anyway. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Can we revist this:

Isiah has misused Nate and Balkman all season long, and some fools on this board wanted to send the to the Hornets for Hilton Armstrong.

Just amazing some of the **** that comes up on this site. If Isiah wants to win he plays those two with david lee almost 30 minutes a night

hey MS, i haven't heard you bashing Jamal lately... feeling OK?