Posted by oohah:

No it won't. Remember, LB sabotaged the season. If Isiah gets the same wins trying his best - he is far worse. If Isiah gets the same wins by sabotaging the team - then maybe he's as good as LB, but it would mean he sabotaged our great team. Sabotaged it...

The question Panos posed and the answer he implied was that either Thomas is sabotaging the team or LB did not sabotage the team because we can't have it both ways.

Now your answer is trying to have it both ways.

oohah

You're not understanding. Panos said that , if we win 23 games, either Isiah has sabotaged the team because we're supposed to be so much better or LB has his name cleared because we we're a sh-tty team all along. The only way you can have that both ways is if you think this team is worse than LB's team, a possibility that on paper atleast appears untenable. So my answer is not trying to have it both ways. The suggestion is not that Isiah has sabotaged the team but rather that the team was so sh-tty all along that no coach can correct the situation.

You're not understanding. Panos said that , if we win 23 games, either Isiah has sabotaged the team because we're supposed to be so much better or LB has his name cleared because we we're a sh-tty team all along.

No it won't. Remember, LB sabotaged the season. If Isiah gets the same wins trying his best - he is far worse. If Isiah gets the same wins by sabotaging the team - then maybe he's as good as LB, but it would mean he sabotaged our great team. Sabotaged it...

i agree. phil jackson is no better than isiah thomas coaching wise either. what has he ever done without a top50 player?

Well then how can you love this team? My comment might be strange -- I'll admit it. But your unwavering support for these quitting losers is strange to me. People are strange...

Posted by oohah:

You really aren't understanding. Read the post. The presumption is that LB sabotaged the team, as I'm sure you'd agree. Then, given the same 23 win performance, 1) either Isiah is also sabotaging or 2) the team has so grotesquely sucked all along that it vindicates LB for his poor win total.

No you're really not understanding, please go back and really give the post a good read. All things being equal:

A) The players are so bad that neither LB or Isiah can coach them to win more than 23 wins (Although Isiah already did), so LB was really not sabotaging the team.
B) Both Isiah and LB are both doing or did such a bad job honestly coaching to win because the team should be better as presently constructed.
C) Both Isiah and LB are sabotaging the team.

But all things are not equal, LB is supposed to be the best coach in history, and Isiah is not.

oohah

Oohah, I apologize for calling you out on your understanding. But I really think that you're not even in the ballpark here. You're flatly wrong with your "having it both ways comment" and I think you're panicking to make it sound like you even had a point.

Presumptions 1) LB is a superior coach 2) The team now is more talented (Zach, Renaldo, Mardy, Chandler) 3) Isiah achieves another 23 win total

Scenarios)

1. Larry sabotaged
a) Isiah is also sabotaging
b) Isiah is such an INCREDIBLY worse coach that, with 23 wins, he would be underperforming to the level of a Larry sabotage with a less talented team. People expected the team to be at .500. So Isiah would then be missing that mark by 18 wins and I think its hard to argue that its solely due to a coaching differential. But, we'll keep it here as an option.
c) Although the team is improved talent-wise on paper, they in actuality suck just as grotesquely as during the LB season. (an indictement of Isiah's GMing). In this scenario, coaching is considered to be a negligible variable.
d) Off the court distractions are greater this season leading to the same win total despite a more talented team. (Implausible over 82 games)
e) A combination of a,b, c or d

2. Larry didn't sabotage
a) Isiah is sabotaging and this is the reason for the same 23 win total despite a more talented team
b) Isiah's coaching is so INCREDIBLY worse that he'll get the same 23 win total despite the vastly improved talent on the roster. Again for there to be such a drop off from the expected 41 win, this seems unlikely to be ths ole cause.
c) Although the team is improved talent-wise on paper, they in actuality suck just as grotesquely as during the LB season. (an indictement of Isiah's GMing). In this scenario, coaching is considered to be a negligible variable.
d) Off the court distractions are greater this season leading to the same win total despite a more talented team. (Implausible over 82 games)
e) A combination of a,b,c, or d

Given these scenarios if one states that "either Isiah is sabotaging or LB has his name cleared," the implication is that choices a, b and d are negligible. Whats in contention I suppose is whether choice C can coexist with LB being a great coach. And I'd say yes because 1) its hard to explain away a monumental 18 win differential from the expected .500 mark just with coaching , 2) we've already correctly assumed the team is vastly more talented now and, even with somewhat diminished coaching, we should expect more wins, and 2) the team mutiny against LB was well known and not indicative of his other coaching stints. This is why no one is trying to have it both ways, as you wrongly accused. Not even you. The real disagreement is over how much of an impact coaching skill has had on our performance and whether LB can both be a great coach and have a bad year.

I'm not trying to push your buttons (today), Oohah. Forget about whose right or wrong, maybe its me. But, can you now see the point that I've tried so painstakingly to make?

[Edited by - codeunknown on 12-15-2007 01:51 AM]

Who said that? You?

Either way, the guy tried and his style did not fly with these loser players. You cannot solely blame Brown for that messy 2005-06 season.

Posted by oohah:


These presumptions are not really on point.

1) LB is a superior coach, that is not a presumption but a given.

2) The team is more talented yes, but unfortunately, not in the areas of skill that would cause improvement. This is Isiah the GM's fault. He needed to get a defensive wing player who isn't an entire liability on offense, and just a goddamn shooter. He failed to make either acquisition.

3) The team achieving another 23 win total is a very premature prediction, can't we agree on that? I really don't think they'll play this bad for the rest of the season. I think they will be more like normal bad as they were last year.

oohah

Oohah I feel a little bit that I'm talking to a brick wall. The assumptions are on point - I really have to wonder whether you're appreciating the context of the discussion at all. The assumptions were made were to accomodate you! You are the one who started up with the LB is the greatest coach and therefore there is a contradiction. I proved clearly, in my opinion, why there isn't a shred of truth to that. The 23 win assumption came from Panos's original post - it was the hypothetical that geared the discussion. The more talented on paper assumption is pretty obvious to everyone, considering the addition of "all-star Zach." The fact that it hasn't translated into good play and wins was Panos's whole point to begin with - we suck and that was 99% of the contribution to the LB win total. In other words, choice 2C.