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arkrud
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12/13/2007  2:07 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bippity10:

I'm just really confused about the quality of our drafts. We keep hearing about how good they were but............

Lee-back-up
Frye-Gone
Nate-spot minutes when the coach sees fit
Balkman-very spot minutes when the coach sees fit
Chandler-No run on a last place team
Mardy-No run on a last place team

Have our drafts really been bad or is Isiah failing himself and us by not playing these guys?

i was thinking the same the other day.

Martin, just think. The best player of all those guys is David Lee, and he's barely getting 25 minutes a night on a completely horrible team. Frye is not doing caca in Portland, and these guys Isiah didn't draft are on their way to superstardom, or at least stardom. It's scary how he's got this rep of being a GREAT drafter (Jeff Van Gundy even said it) but reality shows he's quite overrated.

Isiah is not drafter... he is painter... abstractionist
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Solace
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12/13/2007  2:14 PM
Posted by VDesai:

And btw, everyone who criticizes the drafts completely misses the pointthat most of our picks were taken in the bottom half of the first round and the players we've gotten with those picks exceed the expectations usually afforded to those players. I'd like to see a list of GMs that have gotten more quality after pick 19 or whatever within the past 3 years.

That they haven't developed they way they should have is on Isiah the coach not Isiah the drafter. Isiah the coach has put them all in a poor situation and has not afforded them the playing time one would expect.

If they're not good enough to play, then his drafts haven't been better than other GMs. Right now it's coming from Isiah to say that the guys he drafted can't play in the NBA. So, either he's a good drafter and a terrible coach, or his drafting is severely overrated. It's not that everyone expects studs from mid-to-late first rounders. It's that for years we've heard how awesome a drafter Isiah is... and yet this year makes it look like he's produced no results.

[Edited by - Solace on Dec 13 2007 2:15 PM]
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VDesai
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12/13/2007  2:19 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by VDesai:

And btw, everyone who criticizes the drafts completely misses the pointthat most of our picks were taken in the bottom half of the first round and the players we've gotten with those picks exceed the expectations usually afforded to those players. I'd like to see a list of GMs that have gotten more quality after pick 19 or whatever within the past 3 years.

That they haven't developed they way they should have is on Isiah the coach not Isiah the drafter. Isiah the coach has put them all in a poor situation and has not afforded them the playing time one would expect.

If they're not good enough to play, then his drafts haven't been better than other GMs. Right now it's coming from Isiah to say that the guys he drafted can't play in the NBA. So, either he's a good drafter and a terrible coach, or his drafting is severely overrated. It's not that everyone expects studs from mid-to-late first rounders. It's that for years we've heard how awesome a drafter Isiah is... and yet this year makes it look like he's produced no results.

[Edited by - Solace on Dec 13 2007 2:15 PM]

They are good enough to play- all 3 have made contributions above what you'd normally see from guys taken in the 20's and beyond. Isiah has often blocked their progress with his other acquisitions and you can't deny that.

Again, name some other GM's who have made better picks from 20 and beyond in the last few years...its gonna be hard to find guys with better or more consistent hauls.
Bippity10
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12/13/2007  2:56 PM
They havent' made any contributions. They've scored some points and looked nice on other nights but judging by our record the past few years they haven't made any contributions.

Now I'm not questioning Isiah's ability to draft. I'm saying if these drafts were so good why aren't they playing more? Couldn't you get an NBDL player to sit on the bench and contibute to losing every now and then? If they are good picks after 20 than why aren't they playing? I simply cannot be impressed with someone that rides the pine no matter how good I'm told they are.
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VDesai
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12/13/2007  3:07 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

They havent' made any contributions. They've scored some points and looked nice on other nights but judging by our record the past few years they haven't made any contributions.

Now I'm not questioning Isiah's ability to draft. I'm saying if these drafts were so good why aren't they playing more? Couldn't you get an NBDL player to sit on the bench and contibute to losing every now and then? If they are good picks after 20 than why aren't they playing? I simply cannot be impressed with someone that rides the pine no matter how good I'm told they are.


Then no one's made contributions to anything.

I think these players have shown enough talent and productivity when they have played that you could consider them above average picks relative to where they were taken. You can take a look at every other player taken in that range and see that. I don't see the criticsm here- I hate Isiah, but I don't see any disputing this point.

You have oodles of reasons why these guys don't play- perhaps they don't make sense, but I don't believe its due to lack of talent. Channing Frye- a top 10 pick, was immediately diminished by the acquisition of Eddy Curry. Nate Robinson was drafted into backcourt full of similar guards. David Lee has earned his run, but is continually blocked by new acquisions like Randolph. Same thing with Balkman- Isiah stupidly blocked him by acquiring Jeffries. Chandler was drafted behind those 2.

But they still have been productive when they have gotten run- and in many cases more productive than those blocking them. But for many reasons, PRIMARLY SALARY, they have been blocked.

You don't have to look any further than dollars.

Drafted into a losing team, they'd be getting plenty of minutes. Drafted on a winning team in a better organization and I think a few of these guys would be rotation players.

I look at a guy like David Lee and I seriously think he'd be starting on the majority of teams in the league. Imagine him next to Duncan in SA or next to KG?
BlueSeats
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12/13/2007  4:00 PM
Isiah is a "good" drafter. He gets keepers with late round picks. But it's not like he's gotten the Parkers, Redds, Boozers and Arenases of the league. (Well, reports were that Francis was a bit of a boozer, but that's not what I mean.)

But I think the controversy is how good our guys are relative to the rest of the league. There used to be a lot of hyperbole about how young were are, how good our youth will be, how Brown squandered them, etc.

We saw comparisons like these:

Nate = Archibald
Balkman = Pippen
Lee = Debbussere
Frye = Duncan
Collins = Clyde

etc

We're just confronted by the reality that just because Karl Malone and Richard Jefferson developed jumpers in the NBA not all poor shooters will. And that guys who never defended a lick after 4-5 years in the league probably wont start to here.

But if you've got a pick in the 20's and want a raw, energy-type role player, Isiah/Suhr will probably get you one.
VDesai
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12/13/2007  4:05 PM
I think there's still considerable upside to players like Lee and Balkman and even NAte but for a lot of reasons I'm not sure that'll be realized here.

Will they become stars like Parker, Boozer or Redd? No, but they should all be above average NBA players, and I'm yet willing to rule out there ability to become something more considering what I've seen of them at times.

But because they are not stars does not mean Isiah did a bad job of drafting them. That's over the top criticism IMO. They are good players and significantly better than the quality of player picked in that range.
VDesai
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12/13/2007  4:07 PM
What is a valid criticism, IMO, is that Isiah has thrown away premium draft choices and hamstrung his ability to find a quality player among a better quality pool.
TMS
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12/13/2007  5:12 PM
nothing about this franchise ever makes sense anymore anyway.
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TheGame
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12/13/2007  11:41 PM
IT is a solid drafter. When you think of the hit/miss ratio of most GM's, IT has gotten guys who can play very late in the draft. The only real miss was Frye and that was only because he was a lottery pick. If you got Frye with the 25th pick, I think you could live with that. Did he make the absolute best picks he could have made in hindsight? No. But few GM's do over the course of several years.

As for Balkman, I am somewhat disappointed in his play so far. He seems less focused than he was last year or even this past summer, when he looked like a beast on our summer league team. He still plays with energy, but his jumpshot has only improved slightly and he still cannot make freethrows. Plus, he is not as focused as he should be on defense. He takes too many chances, which often leaves him out of position on defense (the sad part is that he is still our best defender). I think he is still hurt to some extent, but I also think that he needs to put in more work on his game.
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islesfan
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12/13/2007  11:47 PM
When Isiah drafts for best available athlete, he's fine (Nate, Balkman and Lee). When he drafts for basketball skill, he's really lacking (Frye, Collins and Chandler?).
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TMS
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12/13/2007  11:55 PM
Posted by VDesai:

I think there's still considerable upside to players like Lee and Balkman and even NAte but for a lot of reasons I'm not sure that'll be realized here.

Will they become stars like Parker, Boozer or Redd? No, but they should all be above average NBA players, and I'm yet willing to rule out there ability to become something more considering what I've seen of them at times.

But because they are not stars does not mean Isiah did a bad job of drafting them. That's over the top criticism IMO. They are good players and significantly better than the quality of player picked in that range.

i agree completely... i think these players are not being utilized well at all, both due to the imbalance in the roster as well as bad coaching decisions & lack of accountability within the entire organization to reach for higher standards... look at relative no name players like Ben Wallace & Bruce Bowen early in their careers... they didn't show much of anything at all... then once they were utilized correctly & given a real shot to flourish in their roles, they became awesome players that both played huge integal roles to help their teams win championships... the lengths that the disenfranchised fans around here will go to downgrade the talent we have on this team is mindboggling... we have talent, it just doesn't fit well at all... this is not a collection of garbage as people all want to make it out to be... we just need to trim some of the excess repetitive talent & bring in players that complement the left overs so we can finally have some team balance... we dont' need to tear down the entire roster & build it all back up again from scratch like some people are saying we do.
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TMS
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12/13/2007  11:56 PM
Posted by islesfan:

When Isiah drafts for best available athlete, he's fine (Nate, Balkman and Lee). When he drafts for basketball skill, he's really lacking (Frye, Collins and Chandler?).

agreed... 1 of the reasons i'm very wary of how he's gonna use that top lottery pick we're bound to get this year.
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Siar617
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12/14/2007  3:00 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by islesfan:

When Isiah drafts for best available athlete, he's fine (Nate, Balkman and Lee). When he drafts for basketball skill, he's really lacking (Frye, Collins and Chandler?).

agreed... 1 of the reasons i'm very wary of how he's gonna use that top lottery pick we're bound to get this year.

are you guys saying nate lee balkman chandler morris frye and collins have no skill
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Bippity10
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12/14/2007  11:36 AM
I'm not even bashing the picks. I don't know if they can play, because they dont'. So either they can play and Isiah isn't using them. Or they can't play and we need to stop giving him credit for them. So far all I've seen is guys that are producing according to when they were drafting.
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VDesai
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12/14/2007  11:54 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

I'm not even bashing the picks. I don't know if they can play, because they dont'. So either they can play and Isiah isn't using them. Or they can't play and we need to stop giving him credit for them. So far all I've seen is guys that are producing according to when they were drafting.

I think they are two separate things. He has found above average talent with respect to the positions he had available to him. But Isiah the roster manager and coach has sabatoged his own ability to find that talent. But the 2nd part doesn't mean he can't find the talent.

I don't even know what I'm saying anymore.
MS
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12/14/2007  12:03 PM
I love the do your homework

96 Draft-J'Oneal, Peja, Marbury, Allen, Walker, Shareef, Kobe, etc you have the second pick in the draft its not that hard.

Nate was the wrong pick because you already had jamal, he doesn't really draft that well very overated. You draft uptempo guys and then don't play uptempo ball what really is the point there. Frye was a horrible pick, nate was medicore, lee was great, balkman was a reach, as was chandler and collins is a role player with no role.....
Bippity10
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12/14/2007  12:10 PM
But part of drafting is finding the right talent for your team. He has found guys that can't get off the bench because their are guys in front of them. If you are going to do that why not just stockpile at a position of need. I would think grabbing 12 PG's with the hope that one of them takes off(I can't fault this strategy even if they all fail) is a better late round draft strategy than drafting another 1 dimensional 2 guard that can't get off the bench. But that's just my opinion.
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VDesai
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12/14/2007  12:16 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

But part of drafting is finding the right talent for your team. He has found guys that can't get off the bench because their are guys in front of them. If you are going to do that why not just stockpile at a position of need. I would think grabbing 12 PG's with the hope that one of them takes off(I can't fault this strategy even if they all fail) is a better late round draft strategy than drafting another 1 dimensional 2 guard that can't get off the bench. But that's just my opinion.


They wouldn't necessarily have been the wrong talent for his team if knew what the f he was doing as a coach and roster manager in the first place. When you draft in the 20's you cannot draft for need cause you will be getting marginal players. Drafting best available talents is a good strategy b/c you have a better chance of getting a player with more value of the pick. What you do with that player afterwards is the mark of how good you are as a GM.
VDesai
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12/14/2007  12:21 PM
BTW, as a perfect example, look at the Bulls drafts in the early 90's. They kept drafting PF's and C's in the late 20's cause they thought they needed upgrades there and what they ended up with was crap players like Stacey King, Corie Blount, Scott Williams, Jason Caffey etc.

The Spurs, probably one of the best late drafting teams in the NBA, focus on best available talents regardless of position/need and regardless of background and usually find gems in terms of value relative to their draft position.
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