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Was Zach really a good trade?
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nyk4ever
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12/11/2007  8:28 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by nixluva:

How many teams are really built well? You know who they are cuz they're winning at a much higher clip.

That quote right there should automatically eliminate the Knicks from you're thinking then man. I'm not trying to be a dick, but the Knicks really aren't built anywhere near well.
True, but then we should be able to at the least compete with other bad teams. This is about more than the teams construction. I've seen much worse rosters play some semblence of pro BB. This team has played better, so this recent stretch is about coaching. He's not having any effect on the players. Prime example is that even with Zach being a ball hog and so forth, McMillan got him to play some good ball. Scoring, Rebounding and over 2 asts a game from a PF is pretty good. Zach has devolved under Isiah. In fact all the players have gotten worse this year.

Nix, I think you are right that the players are tuning Isiah out... I don't think theres a question about that.

Where I disagree with you is your idea that when Isiah goes, that this team is suddenly going to play well. I just don't think it's going to happen with any coach, I don't think even Phil Jackson or Pat Riley could get these guys to play better than 37 win team. Where you see a great roster, I see a bunch of me-first players who have no idea what it takes to play team basketball(sans Lee, Balkman, Rose) If you don't have guys that are willing(or even if they are willing, they might not be able to contribute) in areas where they aren't proficcient, then I don't see how you can be anywhere near a winning team.

This core group of players has had long enough to prove their worth to us as fans and I think the time has come where the walls are torn down and rebuilt.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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4949
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12/11/2007  8:33 PM
Posted by King1:

Not saying Zach is a bad player. Is he bad for Knicks yes. Curry and Lee last year averaged 30.2 points and 17.4 rebounds. They did this on 18 shots. Zach and Curry are averaging 32.2 points and 15.5 rebounds on 27 shots. We are paying 13 million dollars for 2 extra points per game and 10 extra shots. Just think if we would have spent that money on a perimeter player.

Here's what I think about it. Zach AND Lee should be starting at the foreward positions, increasing our rebound totals, and keeping Curry in the middle for what it's worth. There seems to be a great divide here. Lee is playing under Zach and Curry seems to be deminishing under Zach. No one seems happy, except Zach stats. I say put your biggest and best out there at the same time and let the guards mix it up and keep it that way for the rest of the season. Isiah should let them know that. What's the worst that can happen? We continue the win-lose ratio that we are on right now. We clearly need consistency. But we need to improve in 'two' departments at least. Rebounding and a consistent starting line-up. Too many indecisions on this teams roster. That's the way I see it.
I'll never trust this' team again.
bitty41
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12/11/2007  10:07 PM
Good offensive players make players around them better. Zach and Eddy bring out the worst in their teammates instead. Trading one of them won't change that. Ask the Trail Blazers if they want Zach back and I bet they'll say "hell no." Ask the other 28 GMs if they regret not beating the Knicks' offer for Zach and I bet they'll also say "hell no"

Man this isn't always true J Kidd can barely get a rise out of his teammates in Jersey. He's not just a good offensive player but a great offensive player. DWade is playing with the walking dead in Miami and their record reflects this. Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson both great offensive players continue to play on an underachieving team. My point its a little more complicated then "oh if he's a good offensive player he'll make his teammates better offensive players".

Bonn1997
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12/12/2007  12:30 AM
Posted by bitty41:
Good offensive players make players around them better. Zach and Eddy bring out the worst in their teammates instead. Trading one of them won't change that. Ask the Trail Blazers if they want Zach back and I bet they'll say "hell no." Ask the other 28 GMs if they regret not beating the Knicks' offer for Zach and I bet they'll also say "hell no"

Man this isn't always true J Kidd can barely get a rise out of his teammates in Jersey. He's not just a good offensive player but a great offensive player. DWade is playing with the walking dead in Miami and their record reflects this. Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson both great offensive players continue to play on an underachieving team. My point its a little more complicated then "oh if he's a good offensive player he'll make his teammates better offensive players".
None of those players are making their teammates *worse* though
nixluva
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12/12/2007  12:45 AM
I wouldn't blame Zach for the teams problems tho. His presence wasn't stopping Curry, jamal or Steph from scoring in the good games this team did play. It's not like the media tries to paint it, as if they've never played well alongside each other. I remain convinced that this roster could be coached to play better.

Isiah panicked and made a change in approach. He basically messed up the heads of his guards. Instead of instilling coinfidence in them he made them hesistant to do anything but force it into Curry or Zach, no matter what the defense is doing. So instead of taking the penetration or open shot the defense is giving us, the guards are make horrible passes and then just standing around and watching.

When I said that Isiah had a good initial concept, I meant the idea to use motion and passing. The plays called for more cuts to the basket from the guards and SF position. You almost never see the sets we ran last year when the idea was to feed the post and then make a hard cut to the basket to clear thru your man. When the guards just stand on the perimeter they help to clog up things for Zach and Curry, cuz the guards man is able to just step in and swipe at the ball, which is how many of the TO's are created.

The offense is too deliberate and the defense isn't aggressive enough. How about picking up full court since we have so many bodies on the bench. It would get the players into the mode of being more aggressive defensively. Isiah's style lulls the team to sleep. Get Jones, Balk, Mardy, Nate etc in the game and tell them to pressure and double the ball handler for the other team. Make the star of the other team give up the ball with more hard doubles. What could it hurt to try to catch a spark?
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Was Zach really a good trade?
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