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BasketballJones
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12/10/2007  7:52 PM
Here's the thread:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=24101&page=all

And here's what oohah said:
Posted by oohah:

Sometimes the truth isn't so pretty.

Guys can pretend that they are color blind when it comes to lee, but I don't think that is the case. Please take a gander at the film: "The Great White Hype". America loves a white sports hero, craves it actually. It may not be 'you' who thinks that way, but 'you' are not everybody.

For example: another Knick plays bad they are a bum. Lee plays bad, his injury must be still hampering him.

***

I've been calling for Lee to start since his second month in the NBA, but I haven't lost all objectivity when it comes to Lee like some guys.

Loss of objectivity? That is why no one has mentioned that the 2 plays that basically ended the game belong to Lee:

1) Lee failed to box out Artest on Kevin martin's missed free-throw.
2) Lee threw the ball to the pretty girl in the front row when he meant to hit Crawford in the corner.

Had that been Curry or Marbury, they would have been tarred and feathered 1,000,0000 times on this board already.

***

Lee has huge Curry-like holes in his game when it comes to scoring and defense. That is true, I hate to break it to everybody. I would trade him straight up for Artest without thinking about it.

It's just so crazy it might work!

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 17-11-2007 2:53 PM]

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BasketballJones
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12/10/2007  7:54 PM
So oohah did not say you could only like David Lee for racial reasons, and implied that he likes David Lee himself.

However, he does seem to imply that many are not holding David Lee to the same standard as some other players with different racial backgrounds.

Personally, I think the contract differences have a lot to do with it. Also, it's not surprise that white folks like a white player that got some skillz.

I'm not sure, but I think there might be a few chinese people who like Yao Ming too.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 12-10-2007 19:56]
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BasketballJones
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12/10/2007  7:57 PM
So much for peace. Let the wars begin.
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BasketballJones
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12/10/2007  7:58 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

So oohah did not say you could only like David Lee for racial reasons, and implied that he likes David Lee himself.

However, he does seem to imply that many are not holding David Lee to the same standard as some other players with different racial backgrounds.

Personally, I think the contract differences have a lot to do with it. Also, it's not surprise that white folks like a white player that got some skillz.

I'm not sure, but I think there might be a few chinese people who like Yao Ming too.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 12-10-2007 19:56]

Not that I'm comparing David Lee to Yao Ming.


I should just shut up.

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codeunknown
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12/10/2007  8:17 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by BasketballJones:

So oohah did not say you could only like David Lee for racial reasons, and implied that he likes David Lee himself.

However, he does seem to imply that many are not holding David Lee to the same standard as some other players with different racial backgrounds.

Personally, I think the contract differences have a lot to do with it. Also, it's not surprise that white folks like a white player that got some skillz.

I'm not sure, but I think there might be a few chinese people who like Yao Ming too.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 12-10-2007 19:56]

Not that I'm comparing David Lee to Yao Ming.


I should just shut up.

So basically you think Lee's as good as Ming while the other Knicks are not as good as Ming. Hence, you crave Lee.

As a sports hero.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
oohah
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12/10/2007  8:21 PM
So oohah did not say you could only like David Lee for racial reasons, and implied that he likes David Lee himself.

I am an OG Lee supporter since draft day and I would have started him since December 2005, and I still would start him.
However, he does seem to imply that many are not holding David Lee to the same standard as some other players with different racial backgrounds.

Very tough to debate the opposite. You never see Lee criticized except by a couple of us who are then lambasted. He throws a pass away, it's the other guys fault. "Bad Defense? Did I mention he is a great rebounder? Lee can't Shoot? Did I mention he is a great rebounder?"
Personally, I think the contract differences have a lot to do with it.

Contracts are a red herring.
Also, it's not surprise that white folks like a white player that got some skillz.

It's not a surprise and it is not a bad thing either. It is human nature.
I'm not sure, but I think there might be a few chinese people who like Yao Ming too.

My point exactly!

Strangely enough, I think that one of the few good defensive performances I have seen from Lee was his 4th quarter vs. Ming. Nobody likes Lee more than I do except King.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
BasketballJones
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12/10/2007  8:49 PM
Posted by oohah:
So oohah did not say you could only like David Lee for racial reasons, and implied that he likes David Lee himself.

I am an OG Lee supporter since draft day and I would have started him since December 2005, and I still would start him.
However, he does seem to imply that many are not holding David Lee to the same standard as some other players with different racial backgrounds.

Very tough to debate the opposite. You never see Lee criticized except by a couple of us who are then lambasted. He throws a pass away, it's the other guys fault. "Bad Defense? Did I mention he is a great rebounder? Lee can't Shoot? Did I mention he is a great rebounder?"
Personally, I think the contract differences have a lot to do with it.

Contracts are a red herring.
Also, it's not surprise that white folks like a white player that got some skillz.

It's not a surprise and it is not a bad thing either. It is human nature.
I'm not sure, but I think there might be a few chinese people who like Yao Ming too.

My point exactly!

Strangely enough, I think that one of the few good defensive performances I have seen from Lee was his 4th quarter vs. Ming. Nobody likes Lee more than I do except King.

oohah

I think there probably is some bias, but I don't think it's that much. Compare Lee to KVH. I seem to recall that KVH got a lot of criticism throughout his career from all sides basically for not living up to what people saw as his potential. KVH had a star's contract.

I think people see Lee as playing better than expected given where he was drafted.

If Lee were getting the same salary as Marbury would still be as immune from criticism? Don't we expect more from our stars?



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BasketballJones
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12/10/2007  8:51 PM
The other interesting figure is Allan Houston. I recall that he was criticized for his deficiencies, but never so much as he was after he signed the $100,000,000 contract.
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oohah
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12/10/2007  9:02 PM
I think there probably is some bias, but I don't think it's that much. Compare Lee to KVH. I seem to recall that KVH got a lot of criticism throughout his career from all sides basically for not living up to what people saw as his potential. KVH had a star's contract.

I think people see Lee as playing better than expected given where he was drafted.

If Lee were getting the same salary as Marbury would still be as immune from criticism? Don't we expect more from our stars?

You are correct on those points B-Jones. However, Van Horn had "Golden Boy" status for his first couple of years in the pros. Van Horn was the real Great White Hope back then! He was just never an elite player like he had the potential to be. I think that is why he was reviled and scorned, by both black and white at times, kind of a "you let us down", and "see, you are not that good" at the same time.

It was totally undeserved. Van Horn was a pretty good player, much better than Lee, but his career was derailed by injuries. Kenyon Martin was all over Van Horn about the playoffs, but meanwhile Van Horn played better throughout the playoffs than Martin.
The other interesting figure is Allan Houston. I recall that he was criticized for his deficiencies, but never so much as he was after he signed the $100,000,000 contract.

The disparagement of Houston for his contract is shameful. He was a clutch, winning type player. Again, he just never became the superstar so many thought he was, and improper utilization ended his career earlier.

You might be correct that if Lee signed a 4 year $60,000,000 contract he would be judged a little more harshly. But he won't get that contract because he is basically the same player as Junkyard Dog.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
4949
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12/10/2007  10:35 PM
Wait for us to win 2 straight and watch the threads pop up asking where all the haters are now.

Man' ain't that' the truth! Band wagon lovers!
I'll never trust this' team again.
bitty41
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12/10/2007  10:38 PM
It's not a surprise and it is not a bad thing either. It is human nature.

One of you my friends freely admits to loving Kirk Hinrich because he's white and not just any old white but American bred white.
BlueSeats
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12/10/2007  11:24 PM
I might be in the minority on this, but I actually find it in better taste to call people out directly and with quotes when making your assertions than using broad sweeping generalizations that serve to disparage pretty much anyone on the other side of the argument. One might think saying "some people" feel such and such way is less confrontational, but it's just broadcasting innuendo recklessly, IMO. Name names and use quotes where possible so we can see if your representation is accurate or hyperbole.

Looking at the thread in question, Holfresh says:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


This is why it's difficult to take you guys seriously...Zack has made the Knicks competitive before Marbs' and Isiah latest gaff...Lee in the lineup while Zack has been out has made the Knicks the same team they were last year...Lee is a nice role player...Many here want to make him more than he really is, not sure why...Actually I know why....But if you want to ignore what Zack brings to this team and pump Lee up to this mythical figure, go right ahead....

Fresh, please, enough with the racial innuendo. Lee had the highest on/of court ranking of the entire team last year, as well as winning MVP at the Soph all-star game and an invitation to practice with Team USA. It's not like he didn't earn his fans. It's fine to prefer Zach, but please don't taint the conversation with your own nonsensical bias.

I not here to insinuate anything....I like Lee very much and think he is an outstanding player...But when people here are grading him above Zack in terms of what he brings to the team...What could that reason possibly be Blue...You ignoring it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...


That last bolded passage, which comes after many persons explanations, not just mine, does imply it could only be racial preference that would have a person prefer Lee's game to Zach's.

Oohah follows up 10 minutes later with explanations ranging from "The Great White Hope" to "The Great White Hype."

The implication being that the disparity in talent is so great, with Zach's so far ahead, any preference for Lee could only be explained by some non-basketball related bias, like racial preference.

Interestingly, no explanation was offered to my question as to why many blacks and non-whites also prefer Lee to Zach.

And Holfresh and Oohah go on and on proclaiming how overrated Lee is without any quotes to substantiate their claims. Maybe some people do go overboard, but lets see it. Maybe it's similar to they hype Curry, Balkman or Fred jones get when they go off too. Has Lee ever been hyped as a franchise player, like Curry or Marbury?

Now I didn't take any of this personally because if you read the thread you'll see I wasn't taking one side of the debate or the other, I was simply challenging their notion that the disparity between what Zach and Lee bring is so great that some extreme bias must be at play for anyone to prefer Lee. I found that line of reasoning silly. In fact, on a per48 basis, last year Lee had a higher Efficiency rating than Zach.

And guess what? He does this year too!!!

So really, there is no obvious disparity in talent, so anyone who prefers Zach must be racially biased. I'm not really saying they are though, "but what else could it be?"

I hope you see that "some of you" only liked Zach better because of racial preference. That is the proper extension of the logic put forth by oohah and holfresh, no?
BlueSeats
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12/10/2007  11:28 PM
basketballjones. I wasted about 25 mins looking for that thread and couldn't find it. I probably just glazed right past it.

You are the master of searching. Got any tips? Do you bookmark everything, use google, what's the trick?
BasketballJones
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12/10/2007  11:33 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

basketballjones. I wasted about 25 mins looking for that thread and couldn't find it. I probably just glazed right past it.

You are the master of searching. Got any tips? Do you bookmark everything, use google, what's the trick?

Two ways.

1) If it was just in the past couple of weeks, I just go back page by page, searching for a term in the thread title. In this case, I assumed correctly that "lee" would be in the title, so I just searched for Lee on each page. I found it a few pages back. If it's farther back, sometimes I can find a news item that gives you the general time frame. If it's a long time ago, I guestimate how many pages back it might be. Say it was a year ago. I might go back 100 pages and see what the dates are, and go forward some number of pages based on where I land. (You need to be set to see all the threads going back, using that little box in the lower right hand corner.

2) I download every thread using wget then grep for a poster's name or a particular phrase with perl. (I only did this once, when I was trying to find out when nixluva said this is a championship team. I never did find it and had to apologize. However, he did say it is a playoff team, which is still pretty egregious, I think.)





[Edited by - basketballjones on 12-10-2007 23:34]
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BlueSeats
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12/10/2007  11:51 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by BlueSeats:

basketballjones. I wasted about 25 mins looking for that thread and couldn't find it. I probably just glazed right past it.

You are the master of searching. Got any tips? Do you bookmark everything, use google, what's the trick?

Two ways.

1) If it was just in the past couple of weeks, I just go back page by page, searching for a term in the thread title. In this case, I assumed correctly that "lee" would be in the title, so I just searched for Lee on each page. I found it a few pages back. If it's farther back, sometimes I can find a news item that gives you the general time frame. If it's a long time ago, I guestimate how many pages back it might be. Say it was a year ago. I might go back 100 pages and see what the dates are, and go forward some number of pages based on where I land. (You need to be set to see all the threads going back, using that little box in the lower right hand corner.

2) I download every thread using wget then grep for a poster's name or a particular phrase with perl. (I only did this once, when I was trying to find out when nixluva said this is a championship team. I never did find it and had to apologize. However, he did say it is a playoff team, which is still pretty egregious, I think.)





[Edited by - basketballjones on 12-10-2007 23:34]

Wow, you have it down to an art form. There are three threads I'd love to track down someday, but it's just not worth the weekend it would take me.
tkf
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12/10/2007  11:56 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by oohah:
It's what Holfresh said and you agreed with him.

I do not believe that is accurate.

oohah

You don't remember bringing up "the great white hope" theory?

Just man-up and spare me the search through three weeks of posts.


I have been over at realgm trying to defend david lee against those who think he has regressed.. LOL...

The same people, think that acquiring zach randolph was good....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
BasketballJones
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12/11/2007  12:04 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by BlueSeats:

basketballjones. I wasted about 25 mins looking for that thread and couldn't find it. I probably just glazed right past it.

You are the master of searching. Got any tips? Do you bookmark everything, use google, what's the trick?

Two ways.

1) If it was just in the past couple of weeks, I just go back page by page, searching for a term in the thread title. In this case, I assumed correctly that "lee" would be in the title, so I just searched for Lee on each page. I found it a few pages back. If it's farther back, sometimes I can find a news item that gives you the general time frame. If it's a long time ago, I guestimate how many pages back it might be. Say it was a year ago. I might go back 100 pages and see what the dates are, and go forward some number of pages based on where I land. (You need to be set to see all the threads going back, using that little box in the lower right hand corner.

2) I download every thread using wget then grep for a poster's name or a particular phrase with perl. (I only did this once, when I was trying to find out when nixluva said this is a championship team. I never did find it and had to apologize. However, he did say it is a playoff team, which is still pretty egregious, I think.)





[Edited by - basketballjones on 12-10-2007 23:34]

Wow, you have it down to an art form. There are three threads I'd love to track down someday, but it's just not worth the weekend it would take me.

If you want to email me some details I can try to find them for you.

(Or just post them here.)

Most important is what was the subject, what was in the thread title, if you can remember, and about what time period think the thread happened.

Or if there was some really memorable phrase like "gay robot" in the body of the thread that helps too.



[Edited by - basketballjones on 12-11-2007 00:07]
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BlueSeats
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12/11/2007  12:26 AM
Thanks for offering, Jones, you're awesome. But I don't want to suck you into such pettiness.

(And FWIW, none of it pertains to this topic, or the people involved, in any way.)
BlueSeats
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12/11/2007  12:30 AM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by oohah:
It's what Holfresh said and you agreed with him.

I do not believe that is accurate.

oohah

You don't remember bringing up "the great white hope" theory?

Just man-up and spare me the search through three weeks of posts.


I have been over at realgm trying to defend david lee against those who think he has regressed.. LOL...

The same people, think that acquiring zach randolph was good....

Thanks for saying that.

Just to be clear, I think it's okay for people to prefer Zach. He should be the better player. That he doesn't clearly distinguish himself in spite of his advantages is part of the problem. SImilar to Steph, Eddy, Francis, Jamal, et al.
BasketballJones
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12/11/2007  12:35 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:

Thanks for offering, Jones, you're awesome. But I don't want to suck you into such pettiness.

(And FWIW, none of it pertains to this topic, or the people involved, in any way.)

Okay. But I would do it for either side - h8rs or l0v3rs (if there are any left). Within reason. I don't think our memories are very accurate and it helps to be able to "go to the videotape." Personally, I don't have a problem admitting that I remembered wrongly.

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Peace, my brothers!!!

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