Posted by TMS:

Posted by holfresh:


This is what I don't get about you guys...How did you know Isiah was so wrong...What tipped it off for you guys...The guy didn't even have a chance to be wrong...As a fan, how do you not root for your team to win...

I think everyone gets a clean slate when they get here and I give them time to prove me wrong...How does it work for you guys?...

i gave him 3 years w/a clean slate to get something done... he proved to me over that time he didn't have a plan... i wasn't always as pessimistic about the guy as i am now... ask isles, we used to get into it back on the MSG forums because i got on his case for not giving the guy a chance... like i said, man up & learn from the past... i guess Isiah hasn't gotten that memo.

It was similar for me. For me it happened like 15 or so games into last year's season. It was at that point that I realized that it wasn't lenny, it wasn't Larry, it was the team; and the man who assembled and still supports this team. That in combination with the zach randolph trade was enough for me to see that the knicks truely have no hope under Thomas because he simply doesn't learn from his mistakes. At first I was relatively optimistic. Not that optiistic, but relatively so.

Posted by TMS:

isles has, but i haven't... well, i was moaning during the Layden years but i wasn't even posting here back then... dude, go backtrack any of my posts from 2 years ago... they were much more optimistic than they are now... the only moves Isiah made that i was completely down on from the very beginning were the Big Turd signing, the Jared Jefferies signing, KT's contract extension, the Channing Frye pick & the Zach Randolph trade... hell, i even gave Steve Francis the benefit of the doubt because i figured Isiah was about to trade Marbs or use Francis in a deal to target someone else that actually addressed a need on this roster.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-09-2007 11:02 AM]

Same here. I've become much more negative over the past 2 years. I supported almost every Isiah decision for the first two years. I was probably way too patient with him.

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Here's what I don't get, Holfresh and Nixluva: If you supported like 90% of Isiah's decisions, why would you want him fired? You're taking a big gamble here. How do you know he won't be replaced by a GM who makes moves you dislike rather than ones you invariably like? And shouldn't Isiah be given more than 19 games (not even one-fourth of one season) to get his players to mesh? He has to learn how to incorporate the 20/10 stud we just stole from Portland into the offense.

My loyalty hasn't been to any one player or coach, but to the team. That's been my position and I haven't changed. Arguing in favor of what someone has done up to a certain point doesn't mean undying devotion forever. That's just something people want to put on those of us who have been more supportive of the team. As if you can't change your mind ever. Here's the difference between us. I never root against the team.

No the differences between us are that I don't call people names when they disagree with me and I humbly admit it when I was wrong. I never root against the team either. I always root for the ultimate goal of a championship. Rooting for progress that requires taking a step back first isn't rooting against the team, so long as progress is your ultimate goal. You're better than to even imply that it is rooting against team, or at least I thought you were. If Dolan announced that if the team lost the next game, he would fire Isiah and there'd be a chance you'd get a new coach to lead this roster that you support so strongly, then would you not root for a loss in the next game? Even if you say no, could you at least *understand* why a true fan might say yes to that question?

Posted by SlimPack:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by TMS:

isles has, but i haven't... well, i was moaning during the Layden years but i wasn't even posting here back then... dude, go backtrack any of my posts from 2 years ago... they were much more optimistic than they are now... the only moves Isiah made that i was completely down on from the very beginning were the Big Turd signing, the Jared Jefferies signing, KT's contract extension, the Channing Frye pick & the Zach Randolph trade... hell, i even gave Steve Francis the benefit of the doubt because i figured Isiah was about to trade Marbs or use Francis in a deal to target someone else that actually addressed a need on this roster.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-09-2007 11:02 AM]

Same here. I've become much more negative over the past 2 years. I supported almost every Isiah decision for the first two years. I was probably way too patient with him.

maybe, maybe not. It's just that for while I thought lenny had just lost touch with the game, and that Larry was ruining the team by calling them out in the press, not settling on a consistent rotation, and not rewarding the players who played hard. Frankly I don't know how Islesfan was able to predict disaster as early as he did. Frankly I think he just got lucky

But I don't care about who was right or who was wrong though, which is why I dont rub anything into anyone's face. I just worry that Isiah may not get fired soon

I made those same excuses too with Larry, Lenny, and everyone else. I don't know what I was thinking! I care about who was right only in the sense that I make sure to give them credit and in the sense that I don't appreciate it when someone is very obnoxious toward people he disagrees with and then agrees with them 2 months later, especially if he still acts obnoxiously toward them.

Posted by holfresh:


This is what I don't get about you guys...How did you know Isiah was so wrong...What tipped it off for you guys...The guy didn't even have a chance to be wrong...As a fan, how do you not root for your team to win...

I think everyone gets a clean slate when they get here and I give them time to prove me wrong...How does it work for you guys?...

A similar question was asked a few weeks ago, so I'll just replay my answer from then:

I'm trying to think when it actually occurred....
It happened sometime after Chaney was allowed to lead practice only later to be led out of the Garden and up to the gallows. "Strange fruit hanging from the poplar tree..."

It happened sometime after Isiah blew the chance for Fratello and decided to go with Lenny Wilkens, apparently with the intent of playing him like a puppet.

It came sometime after Marbury and Wilkens didn't call a time-out, and we lost, so they blamed Shandon Anderson because the fans needed them to, or Isiah told them to.

It came sometime after giving the the Nets the first two playoffs game without any effort whatsoever. It came after Marbury played valiantly for 30 mins of the next two games only to throw them away in crunch time.

It came sometime after Marbury demonstrated zero ability to work with the all-star "athletic" types, which everyone said he needed to be at his best, in the Olympics. It came sometime after Brown almost got him sent home from Athens for being uncoachable.

Those first 6 months they got more than a pass from me, I was their biggest supporter (on the basketballboards.net). I think BigC can attest to that. Up till then I was as big a starphucker as anyone. I would have preferred a strip-down rebuild, but somehow I thought Isiah/Marbury could be almost as good. I thought they had NY moxy.

Ha! Pitiful me.

Then came that summer of free-agency, where it seemed Isiah might get every FA on the market. At one point it looked like we might get Kobe, Vince, Crawford, Sheed, Webber, Dampier, SAR and Walker... all of them!!! With little more than expiring contracts and the MLE. Talk was in the air of Isiah for executive of the year, if he could only get that stud of studs... Dampier.

But of course, all we got was Crawful and Gin Baker. Reality was hitting home.

I assure you through this time these happenings did not go unnoticed by me. Cracks were starting to form in my armor, but I was still a lover, because my soul waas weak. Like many of you, I wasn't in my right mind. I was a junkie in need of a fix after being strung out for years under Layden, and Isiah and Marbury looked like the the hero, the heroine and the needle.

Then started the new 2004-2005 season.

It came sometime after we realized TT would always be the one true Fugazy.

It came sometime after every backup PG in the league had their best games against Steph, and it wasn't because they came pumped to play in the mecca, it was because Steph likes to rest on D.

It even came after Marbury declared himself "the best" and the team quit on him. It happened, in fact, immediately after that.

That was around the time that Marbury was telling Wilkens to take his coaching and shove it. It was around the time Marbury was making speeches about togetherness and self-sacrifice but then heading for a massage while the others scrimmaged. It was around that time that Kurt, the last of our old-school warriors, was telling Marbury he wasn't afraid of him (an obvious reference to Marbury's indulged relationship with isiah) and he'd kick his butt. It was around that time that Marbury was telling his friends and nepotistic cousins that he ran the team, not that "black 'ho". It was around that time that Isiah was harassing and firing coworkers. It was round that time that Isiah was Lording over Wilkens from the tunnel and telling him who to play and who to sit.

Yes, all that turmoil was brewing and I could sense it, there was something foul in the air and the record reflected it. Wilknes, the scapegoat of the day, knew it was time to get out, so he did. It didn't matter if he quit or got fired. it wouldn't work and it couldn't work. And this soulless vessel tanked to the bottom like a ship without a hull, and it's yet to recover because the demons who sank us are still manning the bridge.

Larry couldn't save us - and even if he could, Isiah wouldn't let him. Eddy can't save us, and Zach can't save us. Not even the the Great White (role player) Hope, Lee, can save us. This isn't just a company without a "head" - it also lacks backbone and integrity. It was created by the "third-base kid" and a popcorn magnate during a drunken toga party. Dolan wanted to sleep with Magic but he wasn't available so he took home Isiah, Magic's sexy friend. Why not? She was pretty and available. And if Isiah wasn't available he'd have gone with Arsenio Hall or Tom Cruise - anyone with a smile bright enough to turn the lights back up on Broadway, that's who Dolan would set up in his Playboy mansion.

There is no leadership, direction or cause. It's about having money and spending it to look chic and keep up with the in-crowd. We're expensive but cheap. We've become the Paris Hilton of basketball franchises.

Dolan isn't trying to give us a team we can take home to mom and dad, to love and to marry... he's giving us an expensive whore to give us a quickie - and to hell with us if we get stuck with the crabs or genital warts. That's the price you pay to get off.

The question I have for you is, what took you so long to open your eyes? It was just two or three weeks ago you told me anyone who prefers Lee over Zach could ONLY be racially motivated. That was just one of many examples of the kind of self deception you engaged in. There have been sooo many red flags going up from the very beginning that you simply refused to acknowledge. Look, here's one from Lenny Wilkens' press conference the day he was hired:

"I feel like it's my team right now -- or I should say Stephon's team," Wilkens said.

Or how about Wilkens (HOF) only being allowed one assistant coach of his choosing (Dick Helm) who Isiah later fires leaving him none of his own assistants!!! That is unheard of in this league.

The whole Larry Brown fiasco you let yourself believe was solely Larry's fault. As if the players and Isiah, and Isiah's relationship with Marbury, had nothing to do with it. And the harassment trial, you let yourself believe was the case of baseless claims by a gold digger.

Very, very few gave Isiah no chance, but 4 years later, with no pride left in the franchise, you really need to ask yourself what have you been watching while the rest of us watched the Knicks?

Sorry to be harsh on you when you're down, but as in the Lee/Zach situation, which you made about race rather than team, you have some atonement ahead of you before you get a clean slate. Same goes for papabear and oohah.

If some would just apologize this would make it easier on everyone.

I think nixluva and papabear have already admitted to being wrong.
Misterearl, is AWOL.

Posted by Panos:

I think nixluva and papabear have already admitted to being wrong.
Misterearl, is AWOL.

That's just the way I like it.

Although misterearl will no doubt show his face once the Knicks win a couple of games in a row or beat a good team.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by holfresh:


This is what I don't get about you guys...How did you know Isiah was so wrong...What tipped it off for you guys...The guy didn't even have a chance to be wrong...As a fan, how do you not root for your team to win...

I think everyone gets a clean slate when they get here and I give them time to prove me wrong...How does it work for you guys?...

A similar question was asked a few weeks ago, so I'll just replay my answer from then:

I'm trying to think when it actually occurred....
It happened sometime after Chaney was allowed to lead practice only later to be led out of the Garden and up to the gallows. "Strange fruit hanging from the poplar tree..."

It happened sometime after Isiah blew the chance for Fratello and decided to go with Lenny Wilkens, apparently with the intent of playing him like a puppet.

It came sometime after Marbury and Wilkens didn't call a time-out, and we lost, so they blamed Shandon Anderson because the fans needed them to, or Isiah told them to.

It came sometime after giving the the Nets the first two playoffs game without any effort whatsoever. It came after Marbury played valiantly for 30 mins of the next two games only to throw them away in crunch time.

It came sometime after Marbury demonstrated zero ability to work with the all-star "athletic" types, which everyone said he needed to be at his best, in the Olympics. It came sometime after Brown almost got him sent home from Athens for being uncoachable.

Those first 6 months they got more than a pass from me, I was their biggest supporter (on the basketballboards.net). I think BigC can attest to that. Up till then I was as big a starphucker as anyone. I would have preferred a strip-down rebuild, but somehow I thought Isiah/Marbury could be almost as good. I thought they had NY moxy.

Ha! Pitiful me.

Then came that summer of free-agency, where it seemed Isiah might get every FA on the market. At one point it looked like we might get Kobe, Vince, Crawford, Sheed, Webber, Dampier, SAR and Walker... all of them!!! With little more than expiring contracts and the MLE. Talk was in the air of Isiah for executive of the year, if he could only get that stud of studs... Dampier.

But of course, all we got was Crawful and Gin Baker. Reality was hitting home.

I assure you through this time these happenings did not go unnoticed by me. Cracks were starting to form in my armor, but I was still a lover, because my soul waas weak. Like many of you, I wasn't in my right mind. I was a junkie in need of a fix after being strung out for years under Layden, and Isiah and Marbury looked like the the hero, the heroine and the needle.

Then started the new 2004-2005 season.

It came sometime after we realized TT would always be the one true Fugazy.

It came sometime after every backup PG in the league had their best games against Steph, and it wasn't because they came pumped to play in the mecca, it was because Steph likes to rest on D.

It even came after Marbury declared himself "the best" and the team quit on him. It happened, in fact, immediately after that.

That was around the time that Marbury was telling Wilkens to take his coaching and shove it. It was around the time Marbury was making speeches about togetherness and self-sacrifice but then heading for a massage while the others scrimmaged. It was around that time that Kurt, the last of our old-school warriors, was telling Marbury he wasn't afraid of him (an obvious reference to Marbury's indulged relationship with isiah) and he'd kick his butt. It was around that time that Marbury was telling his friends and nepotistic cousins that he ran the team, not that "black 'ho". It was around that time that Isiah was harassing and firing coworkers. It was round that time that Isiah was Lording over Wilkens from the tunnel and telling him who to play and who to sit.

Yes, all that turmoil was brewing and I could sense it, there was something foul in the air and the record reflected it. Wilknes, the scapegoat of the day, knew it was time to get out, so he did. It didn't matter if he quit or got fired. it wouldn't work and it couldn't work. And this soulless vessel tanked to the bottom like a ship without a hull, and it's yet to recover because the demons who sank us are still manning the bridge.

Larry couldn't save us - and even if he could, Isiah wouldn't let him. Eddy can't save us, and Zach can't save us. Not even the the Great White (role player) Hope, Lee, can save us. This isn't just a company without a "head" - it also lacks backbone and integrity. It was created by the "third-base kid" and a popcorn magnate during a drunken toga party. Dolan wanted to sleep with Magic but he wasn't available so he took home Isiah, Magic's sexy friend. Why not? She was pretty and available. And if Isiah wasn't available he'd have gone with Arsenio Hall or Tom Cruise - anyone with a smile bright enough to turn the lights back up on Broadway, that's who Dolan would set up in his Playboy mansion.

There is no leadership, direction or cause. It's about having money and spending it to look chic and keep up with the in-crowd. We're expensive but cheap. We've become the Paris Hilton of basketball franchises.

Dolan isn't trying to give us a team we can take home to mom and dad, to love and to marry... he's giving us an expensive whore to give us a quickie - and to hell with us if we get stuck with the crabs or genital warts. That's the price you pay to get off.

The question I have for you is, what took you so long to open your eyes? It was just two or three weeks ago you told me anyone who prefers Lee over Zach could ONLY be racially motivated. That was just one of many examples of the kind of self deception you engaged in. There have been sooo many red flags going up from the very beginning that you simply refused to acknowledge. Look, here's one from Lenny Wilkens' press conference the day he was hired:

"I feel like it's my team right now -- or I should say Stephon's team," Wilkens said.

Or how about Wilkens (HOF) only being allowed one assistant coach of his choosing (Dick Helm) who Isiah later fires leaving him none of his own assistants!!! That is unheard of in this league.

The whole Larry Brown fiasco you let yourself believe was solely Larry's fault. As if the players and Isiah, and Isiah's relationship with Marbury, had nothing to do with it. And the harassment trial, you let yourself believe was the case of baseless claims by a gold digger.

Very, very few gave Isiah no chance, but 4 years later, with no pride left in the franchise, you really need to ask yourself what have you been watching while the rest of us watched the Knicks?

Sorry to be harsh on you when you're down, but as in the Lee/Zach situation, which you made about race rather than team, you have some atonement ahead of you before you get a clean slate. Same goes for papabear and oohah.

that's poetry in motion