but ellsbury instead of MELKY and HUGHES? thats crazy in my opinion. ellsbury is a nice player, but i would rate melky as a better fielder, plus you're getting hughes, who some said was the top pitcher in the minors last yr. i don't see how they give up a 2-time cy young winner for a little CF and thats it.

Why can't the Yankees just tell Johan's agent they'll give him a contract he can't refuse and that Boston can't match (like 6 years, $180 mil--it would be money better spent than anything else they've spent money on in a long time)? Then Johan could veto any Boston deal and the Yankee team he'd be coming to would be a better team because the Twins would be demanding that we give up less if they knew that Johan was vetoing all other deals.

no one can really say for sure what Hughes' upside will be since he's still so young, but i tend to always go for the proven commodity if they're in their prime... i've seen way too many Ed Yarnall's & Ruben Rivera's over the years to know that the Yankees have held onto the right prospects when they've made deals like this the past several years... i don't see this trade as anything even remotely close to deals they used to make in the 80s that really hurt this franchise like Al Leiter for a 34 yo Jesse Barfield, Doug Drabek for 34 yo Rick Rhoden & Jay Buhner for a 34 yo Ken Phelps... Johan's 28 & still has a lot of years left in that left arm of his IMO... i know there's always the risk he can turn into the next Barry Zito, but nothing in his career would raise any red flags to me... Johan's been the picture of consistency & durability over his entire career once he got established in the bigs.

well, we'll still have plenty of great youth coming up in the system to make losing Hughes more palateable... Joba is a stud already, & i love what i saw out of Ian Kennedy last season... that fastball of his has some great movement & he reminds me of a young Moose... plus we got those kids Betances, Horne, Sanchez & Brackman coming up in the coming years too... none of them are as highly touted as Hughes, i realize that, but look at it this way... Andy Pettitte is probably only going to play 1 more year in all likelihood... that means in '09 when the new Stadium opens, we'd only have Wang as our 1 & only reliable veteran arm in the rotation... who knows how Hughes & Joba will perform this season w/an increased innings load? Kennedy will likely be a great middle rotation guy right away since he's had his innings last season & still pitched very well at this level when he was called up, but wouldn't it be awesome to have Johan heading up the staff & giving our rotation a sense of stability for the next several years?

then if a guy like CC Sabathia comes on the FA market after next season, u can possibly grab him & put him next to Johan to have 2 dominant lefties heading up the rotation going into the future alongside 2 very talented righties in Joba & Kennedy... a guy like Johan on your team makes every other free agent out there wanna come here that much more IMO... aside from the fact that the Yanks can pay the most of any team, there's also the fact that they offer the best chance for these guys to come in & contend year in & year out... having Johan on your team along w/the potent lineup the Yankees put out there every year ensures that.

if minny wants kennedy and hughes they can shove it, i'd rather have the kids. i liked enough what i saw from them last year.

"who knows how Hughes & Joba will perform this season w/an increased innings load?"

tms, i'm almost positive the yanks had them both (and kennedy) on strict pitch counts, thats why kennedy was shut down towards the end of september. chances are they'll be throwing the same amount of pitches next year as they did this year

Posted by BigSm00th:

if minny wants kennedy and hughes they can shove it, i'd rather have the kids. i liked enough what i saw from them last year.

"who knows how Hughes & Joba will perform this season w/an increased innings load?"

tms, i'm almost positive the yanks had them both (and kennedy) on strict pitch counts, thats why kennedy was shut down towards the end of september. chances are they'll be throwing the same amount of pitches next year as they did this year

yeah, i know that's why i say we still don't know how these kids will perform on an extended innings count this year... Joba only threw 102 innings in total last year between the minors & major league club... we can't realistically expect more than ~120 innings out of him at the most next season... Hughes might be good for ~150-160 at best considering the most he's ever thrown in any single season at the minor league level was 146 in '06... last year injuries cut short his season so he only got to throw 110 innings in the minors & majors, so we really can't say for sure how his arm will respond to extended use over a full major league season... of the 2, Kennedy is the most ready to throw extended innings next season considering he threw about 165 innings last year in total.

a lot of Yankee fans somehow assume that these kids will just jump right into the rotation at the #3, 4 & 5 slots in '08 & be staples there for years to come, but you have to look at it realistically... who is going to pitch all those innings in between when these kids are being shut down to conserve their arms over the course of the season? the Yankees aren't going to allow Joba & Hughes to just suddenly start throwing 180+ innings next year w/no regard for their young arms... they're going to baby these kids like crazy for the next year or 2 at the very least... you're looking at names like Mike Mussina, Jeff Karstens & Kei Igawa filling in for those starts to save the wear & tear on these kids... if u land yourself a horse like Johan, you then have a much more stable & reliable rotation by moving Wang & Andy down a slot, & then between Joba, Kennedy & Moose, you have your bottom 3.

again, i'm not saying we HAVE to get Johan or else, but if Boston ends up getting him then we mine as well just resign ourselves to rebuilding from the ground up right now... what use was it to spend all that money to keep ARod, Jorge, Mo & Andy P if the goal wasn't to try & win right now? the Yankees have never been known to do anything half assed like some other organizations do... they know that they need to field a championship calibre team when the new stadium opens... getting a guy like Johan makes a ton of sense for the Yankees cuz of all these factors.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-03-2007 11:04 PM]

Posted by TMS:

no one can really say for sure what Hughes' upside will be since he's still so young, but i tend to always go for the proven commodity if they're in their prime... i've seen way too many Ed Yarnall's & Ruben Rivera's over the years to know that the Yankees have held onto the right prospects when they've made deals like this the past several year

With that in mind, would you be willing to give up Joba (instead of Hughes) and Melky for Johan? I love Joba but I'm not sure I agree with the Yankees' decision to make him untouchable. Johan's a Cy Young award pitcher. Joba looked great but we're judging him on about 20 total MLB innings.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by TMS:

Why can't the Yankees just tell Johan's agent they'll give him a contract he can't refuse and that Boston can't match

that's what you call tampering, a serious charge that can get the Yankees into a whole heap of trouble w/the commissioner's office if they do it... Johan knows the Yankees are gonna pay him anyway, that's no secret... they don't gotta tell him anything... he's already told the Twins trade him to either the Yanks or Red Sox before the season starts or else a deal won't get done cuz he won't waive his NTC once the season begins... the Twins have little options other than to take NY's offer right now or try & get cute & go back to BOS to see if they'll include Lester in the deal... if they risk that & the Yankees pull out of the bidding, they're pretty much screwed & they know it... same thing happened when the Yanks pulled out of the Randy Johnson talks, then ARI found they had no other options so they ended up trading him to us for a much lesser package than what they were asking for... if the Yankees hold firm & take Hughes off the table after tonight, then MIN might have to come back to them & be willing to accept a lesser offer later from both BOS & NY... IMO they're taking a huge risk if they don't take this last Yankees' offer

Maybe they could at least make a public statement like "An A-Rod level contract for about 7 years seems reasonable for a Cy Young winner." Everyone would know what they meant but it wouldn't be tampering.

That's still gonna be construed as tampering- there's are no doubts about what you're implying with that sentence.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by BigSm00th:

if minny wants kennedy and hughes they can shove it, i'd rather have the kids. i liked enough what i saw from them last year.

"who knows how Hughes & Joba will perform this season w/an increased innings load?"

tms, i'm almost positive the yanks had them both (and kennedy) on strict pitch counts, thats why kennedy was shut down towards the end of september. chances are they'll be throwing the same amount of pitches next year as they did this year

yeah, i know that's why i say we still don't know how these kids will perform on an extended innings count this year... Joba only threw 102 innings in total last year between the minors & major league club... we can't realistically expect more than ~120 innings out of him at the most next season... Hughes might be good for ~150-160 at best considering the most he's ever thrown in any single season at the minor league level was 146 in '06... last year injuries cut short his season so he only got to throw 110 innings in the minors & majors, so we really can't say for sure how his arm will respond to extended use over a full major league season... of the 2, Kennedy is the most ready to throw extended innings next season considering he threw about 165 innings last year in total.

a lot of Yankee fans somehow assume that these kids will just jump right into the rotation at the #3, 4 & 5 slots in '08 & be staples there for years to come, but you have to look at it realistically... who is going to pitch all those innings in between when these kids are being shut down to conserve their arms over the course of the season? the Yankees aren't going to allow Joba & Hughes to just suddenly start throwing 180+ innings next year w/no regard for their young arms... they're going to baby these kids like crazy for the next year or 2 at the very least... you're looking at names like Mike Mussina, Jeff Karstens & Kei Igawa filling in for those starts to save the wear & tear on these kids... if u land yourself a horse like Johan, you then have a much more stable & reliable rotation by moving Wang & Andy down a slot, & then between Joba, Kennedy & Moose, you have your bottom 3.

again, i'm not saying we HAVE to get Johan or else, but if Boston ends up getting him then we mine as well just resign ourselves to rebuilding from the ground up right now... what use was it to spend all that money to keep ARod, Jorge, Mo & Andy P if the goal wasn't to try & win right now? the Yankees have never been known to do anything half assed like some other organizations do... they know that they need to field a championship calibre team when the new stadium opens... getting a guy like Johan makes a ton of sense for the Yankees cuz of all these factors.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-03-2007 11:04 PM]

You really think we're only gonna get 120 innings out of Joba? I don't think they'd be planning to use him as a starter from day 1 if they intended to use him for only 120 innings.