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Zach's rebounding reminds me of Oakley
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PresIke
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11/27/2007  9:22 AM
Posted by Nalod:

Randolph gets a lot of offensive rebounds from his own putbacks. One or two a game. Thats not a bad thing, but a bit empty stat.

Oak really grows in stature over time.

What made Oak so valuable was his complimanting What Ewing did best. The chemistry was there and they were hard workers.

We keep looking at indidual talents but they are lessoned by the lack of chemistry on this team. Zack with a theo ratcliff (in prime) type center would be an allstar. With Eddy both their defensive lapses are exposed.

Oaks intangables made him a great complimentry role player but his offense was very suspect and it hurt us at times.

Why is putting back your own miss is an empty stat? It seems to indicates hustle. Didn't your middle school basketball coach remind you to follow your own shot, and how often is it that players don't do that? Sorry, Randolph is a very good rebounder, and clearly a hard worker. I know our love affair with Oak makes some have a hard time admitting it, but Randolph is a VERY savvy rebounder, and like the Oak Tree uses positioning rather than hops, of which neither have had.

The going out of one's way to romanticize all aspects of players of old and diminish almost every aspect of current ones oversimplifies things. Oak was one of my favorite Knicks, but he had his weaknesses, even defensively. He was a great hustle player and defender against most PFs, but used to get completely schooled by Barkely, Malone and LJ (later), and his offensive game was VERY limited. He "complimented" Ewing, sure, but that isn't something that should take away from Randolph's positive contributions. We don't have a super star like Ewing, so is it fair to blame Zach for that?

Many of you all keep turning evidence about individual good play into your problem with the team's overall makeup. The topic was about Randolph's rebounding.

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-27-2007 09:24 AM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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oohah
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11/27/2007  9:32 AM
Fair enough - but even if you take the first couple years out of the sample Oak still winds up on top.

Oakley definitely beats him out at straight rebounding numbers, but not by much and I don't think that more rebounds = better rebounder in some cases.
Not true. His best rebounding and scoring years went (for the most part) hand in hand, and they were when he was younger.

That is another strange aspect of Oakley's career. As you recall, he developed an outside shot (out of necessity) and some other offensive moves as his career wore on. I would say he became a better offensive player, but he didn't score more. By the time he retired he could actually shoot out to the 3. But it took him away from the basket and actually decreased his scoring average, his field goal percentage, and his rebounding average.
Good point, but that would only have a big impact on offensive rebounds then, no? And didn't he used to play an offensive game that was closer to the basket before coming to NY? I would think a big man playing around the basket would have more of a chance for offensive rebounds, even when taking more shots.

I didn't watch Randolph enough to say myself. But my girlfriend is from Portland, and my Portland peoples said he shoots a lot of J's. (I did some investigating when the trade went down.) He also likes the sweeping hook, which I don't consider to be a move that leaves you at the hoop.


****

I love Oakley as much as anyone else, but he was limited: defense, rebounding, and nothing else till he was about 30. That is why Chicago moved him soon after they drafted rookie Horace Grant. And as much as I hate to say it, I think Grant was a better player. Not quite as a good a rebounder as Oak, but damn good, a dead-eye shooter out to 15-17 feet, and an athletic finisher. He also was in the same class defensively as Oakley.

Also, Oakley had a propensity to make dumb plays under pressure, like behind the back passes out of bounds or outlet passes that were inadvisable. It got to the point that my buddy knick-named him: 'Choakley'.

oohah

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EnySpree
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11/27/2007  12:52 PM
Posted by mythfaze:
Posted by simrud:

First of all Oak did punch a teammate in the face, in Toronto, over money. Second of, while he was a great rebounder, his other major strength was his post defense.

Zack might easily be a better rebounder than Oak, but Oak was very far ahead in aspects of the defense. (It goes without saying I hope, that Zack is a way better offensive players.)

...he isn't. Not even close in fact.

In Oaks first seven seasons in the league, he averaged over 10 rebounds per game six times.
In Randolph's first seven, he's averaged over 10 rpg three times, if you include this incomplete season.

In each of those seven seasons, over 3 of those rpg were offensive for Oak.
Again counting this incomplete season, Randolph has had over 3 offensive rpg three times, again including this incomplete season.

Career rpg for Oak: 10
Career rpg for Randolph: 7.8

Come on now...

Cue the stat guy.....oh too late.....

Can you take into the fact Zach was stuck on a deep portland bench early on and had microfracture surgery that's why he just missed 10 rebs per one year?

Zach today? As a Knick? He's a damn good rebounder and nobody seriously has done it like him with a 2" verticle since oak. Yay!
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playa2
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11/27/2007  1:29 PM
Oakley had the strength of two gorillas, Zach is like a baby bull.

When Charles would rebound he would knock you down going for it , even fall into the stands to save a possession.

Zach reminds me of a smaller moses malone on offense, shoot and retrieve his own misses to eventually score.
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Bonn1997
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11/27/2007  1:50 PM
Randolph is a very good rebounder--no doubt. But his stats are inflated because he shares heavy front-court minutes with a very poor rebounder in Eddy. Oakley's rebounding stats were DEflated because shared heavy minutes with a very good rebounder in Ewing. It's really hard to compare their rebounding. I'd just say that Zach and Oakley were both great rebounders.
Allanfan20
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11/27/2007  2:00 PM
^And to top it off, David Lee hasn't been nearly the rebounder that he was, last season.
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MS
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11/27/2007  2:11 PM
Zach is a master at missing his own shot and getting a rebound. This comparison is insulting to oakley who was actually a professional.....

This guy is such a baby, complains all night long
PresIke
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11/27/2007  2:24 PM
Randolph isn't a professional? The same dude who is often the first in the gym, loves the game, and is considered a gym rat?

I guess Rasheed Wallace, Jordan, Kobe, Alonzo Mourning, Kurt Thomas, have been unprofessional babies that hurt their teams too...they sure have a history for complaining about calls.

Impulse problems for some of them, sure, but unprofessional overall?

Anyway, I love Oakley, but he was a HUGE cry baby! Revisionist History 101 apparently is still in session...
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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11/27/2007  2:33 PM
Hmmm...

What else can we think of that will in one sentence that can discredit Zach's rebounding?

Hmmm....

If we look at the stats we can see that he does better early in games and later when his headband is taken off. One can speculate that with his poor leaping ability that the sweat in the band becomes heavy, his rebounding numbers decrease. He may need to wear the band to keep the sweat off his brow, but he sweats too much.

Therefore it's only logical that his rebounding numbers are inflated because of his sweating problem. He hasn't sweated enough early in games for this to be a problem, but very soon his sweatband becomes heavy. Sure, he loses just enough weight after taking it off that with his decent, but not great, skill level on the boards he can then outrebound opponents and teammates that much more, but the sweat comes back and interferes with his vision. Dude needs to get his sweating under control, but since he sucks at doing that he's a hindrance to the team, and his numbers don't reflect his real value. He's clearly overrated as a rebounder because of this and anyone who doesn't see this reason as logical is a moron.


[Edited by - PresIke on 11-27-2007 2:34 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-27-2007 2:35 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Bippity10
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11/27/2007  2:34 PM
Posted by PresIke:

Hmmm...

What else can we think of that will in one sentence that can discredit Zach's rebounding?

Hmmm....

Zach's rebounding sucks
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Bonn1997
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11/27/2007  2:44 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

^And to top it off, David Lee hasn't been nearly the rebounder that he was, last season.
He's still rebounding pretty well, but you're correct. I don't think he's 100% healthy. Hopefully he will be one day, though.
bitty41
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11/27/2007  2:45 PM
PresIke

The beat keeps on going this thread was about Zach's rebounding ability being comparable to Oakley's but yet ANOTHER thread about Zach Randolph has degenerated into the usual bashing.
MS
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11/27/2007  2:47 PM
No he isn't a professional.....

He takes a leave of absence from the blazers and then is found in strip clubs when he is supposed to be home taking care of family business.

Zach is fat, I don't care if he is the first one in the gym, he doesn't work on his body; Eddy lost this weight, jamal added muscle, believe what you want, it's nice he works on his game but he is soft and could really dedicate himself in the weight room.

But so far Zach has put up nice stats, turned the ball over at an alarming rate is dumb as stone and has no concept of moving the ball or playing within a team game. He has been chewed out on telecasts for standing and complaining to officials while his man beats him up the floor and scores....

Way to name guys that don't take plays off and actually play defense. You can complain about a call but not while your man is running up the court and scoring and its happen in a bunch of games already.
Allanfan20
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11/27/2007  4:08 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Allanfan20:

^And to top it off, David Lee hasn't been nearly the rebounder that he was, last season.
He's still rebounding pretty well, but you're correct. I don't think he's 100% healthy. Hopefully he will be one day, though.

Everytime I look he's getting beaten on the boards. He's NOT healthy. He's playing very hard and doing his best, but he seems like he lost a little pep in his step and needs to start boxing out more and to top it off, he misses baskets in traffic all the time now. Just my observations. Maybe his confidence is a little low and Isiah should give him a start.
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Bippity10
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11/27/2007  4:49 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Allanfan20:

^And to top it off, David Lee hasn't been nearly the rebounder that he was, last season.
He's still rebounding pretty well, but you're correct. I don't think he's 100% healthy. Hopefully he will be one day, though.

Everytime I look he's getting beaten on the boards. He's NOT healthy. He's playing very hard and doing his best, but he seems like he lost a little pep in his step and needs to start boxing out more and to top it off, he misses baskets in traffic all the time now. Just my observations. Maybe his confidence is a little low and Isiah should give him a start.
I watched that game last night. He lost out on rebounds to Milsap because Milsap was putting a body on him on nearly every trip. Is it health? It could be. It could also be the league catching up to him, or it could simply be that he isn't working as hard. Who knows?
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Vmart
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11/27/2007  6:05 PM
Posted by SupremeCommander:

Maybe he rebounds like Oakley, maybe not. The major difference between the two is Oakley would have punched the opponent in the face, not his teammate.

Oakley did that too.
Vmart
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11/27/2007  6:15 PM
The big difference between Randolph and Oakley is that Randolph can atually make a layup. Oakley struggled like hell to make a layups and there was a phase in his career where he would try and get fouled instead of making the layup (drove me absolutely crazy). That was Oakley great rebounder but that was his specialty, one way player if I ever saw one. Randolph on the other hand rebounds well and is far and away the better offensive player. Put it this way if Oakley went up aginst Randolph today Randolph would drop points against Oakley and hold his own vs Oakley in the rebounding dept. Randolph is the the better talent no doubt.
TMS
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11/27/2007  7:09 PM
Posted by bitty41:

Big C you start off by making a good comparsion between Oakley and Zach's rebounding. But of course the usual pot shots have to be thrown in about Zach being a bad teammate, trouble maker, and his lacking of winning throughout his career etc. But getting back to the actual topic of the thread; I agree their rebounding is similar mostly due to the fact that both players play below the rim. They rely on their instincts and body to grab most of their boards. They both can be flat out tenacious on the boards.

to be fair, BigC also made a comment about Zach needing to learn how to take a charge in his original post.
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bitty41
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11/27/2007  7:59 PM
TMS,

Thats all well and good but how many times must we hear about the strip club incident what value does that add to any discussion at this point?
TMS
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11/27/2007  8:01 PM
i don't disagree w/u on those things... i tried to keep my comment to the original comments raised by BigC.
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