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FIRING ISIAH WILL NOT MAKE THE SUN SHINE ON THE KNICKS!
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PresIke
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11/21/2007  3:11 PM
He acts like we're so desperate that we can't think straight.

"I'm just trying to think a few steps ahead"

Excuse me? Yeah, like fans don't do that. All we want is Isiah gone, and then we're happy. Yey! We're just lemmings. Please. Can we go hire the replacement for Isiah, Mills, Dolan? What we think may have some value, but we don't make the decisions.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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djsunyc
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11/21/2007  3:12 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by PresIke:

Not sure I am misreading your post Panos, but the assumption that someone "CAPABLE" comes in is wrong. Any fool can figure out that firing Isiah may be the first step towards doing that, and figure out that someone "capable" can come in...

So writing an article about that is something we're suppossed to go "oooooh" and "ahhh" about?

What some of the "haters" here may not realize is that many of the so-called "lovers" supported certain guys like Isiah, etc. because of the reality of having Dolan, and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's.

The real move is get Dolan out of here, but the problem is that is likely not going to happen, so we have to HOPE he does something good.

We all like the idea of Colangelo, Walsh, and a few others coming in, but how do we know that's who will come? Maybe Dolan finally listens to the critics, but how do we know he will. What's so special about asking for someone capable after Isiah? Any of us could have said the same thing, and the premise reeks of condescension towards Knick fans.

"and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's."

Holy mackeral

i disagree with ike 100%. this team, to me, is not more entertaining. this team is full of guys that don't know how to play basketball. they're just out there looking to go 1 on 1. those layden team's were far inferior talent wise yet still managed to win more games than this squad. dice goes out for the season and the team fights for 37 wins. that team was FAR more entertaining than any team isiah has put on the floor, imho.
PresIke
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11/21/2007  3:13 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by PresIke:

Not sure I am misreading your post Panos, but the assumption that someone "CAPABLE" comes in is wrong. Any fool can figure out that firing Isiah may be the first step towards doing that, and figure out that someone "capable" can come in...

So writing an article about that is something we're suppossed to go "oooooh" and "ahhh" about?

What some of the "haters" here may not realize is that many of the so-called "lovers" supported certain guys like Isiah, etc. because of the reality of having Dolan, and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's.

The real move is get Dolan out of here, but the problem is that is likely not going to happen, so we have to HOPE he does something good.

We all like the idea of Colangelo, Walsh, and a few others coming in, but how do we know that's who will come? Maybe Dolan finally listens to the critics, but how do we know he will. What's so special about asking for someone capable after Isiah? Any of us could have said the same thing, and the premise reeks of condescension towards Knick fans.

"and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's."

Holy mackeral

So the team was less entertaining than Layden's team? You need to be honest. Anyway, this is a fruitless argument. I don't even get why you all are disagreeing with me about this author. I'm defending the fact that we already know what he's saying, and that this isn't exactly genius.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
djsunyc
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11/21/2007  3:14 PM
but the garden cheers after a dunk these days despite being down 20 points...so i'm probably in the minority...
PresIke
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11/21/2007  3:17 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by PresIke:

Not sure I am misreading your post Panos, but the assumption that someone "CAPABLE" comes in is wrong. Any fool can figure out that firing Isiah may be the first step towards doing that, and figure out that someone "capable" can come in...

So writing an article about that is something we're suppossed to go "oooooh" and "ahhh" about?

What some of the "haters" here may not realize is that many of the so-called "lovers" supported certain guys like Isiah, etc. because of the reality of having Dolan, and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's.

The real move is get Dolan out of here, but the problem is that is likely not going to happen, so we have to HOPE he does something good.

We all like the idea of Colangelo, Walsh, and a few others coming in, but how do we know that's who will come? Maybe Dolan finally listens to the critics, but how do we know he will. What's so special about asking for someone capable after Isiah? Any of us could have said the same thing, and the premise reeks of condescension towards Knick fans.

It really sounds like you have resigned yourself to Dolan and have completely given up.

Bip, what plans should I follow then? Of course I want Dolan gone.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
MS
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11/21/2007  3:17 PM
They seem like the love playing for him till they get on the court and give a half assed effort and don't try
Bippity10
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11/21/2007  3:19 PM
Number one, stop calling people haters for thinking that Dolan isn't an excuse for incompetence.
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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11/21/2007  3:20 PM
Number 2, stop calling this play "more entertaining"
I just hope that people will like me
Panos
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11/21/2007  3:24 PM
Posted by PresIke:


So the team was less entertaining than Layden's team? You need to be honest. Anyway, this is a fruitless argument. I don't even get why you all are disagreeing with me about this author. I'm defending the fact that we already know what he's saying, and that this isn't exactly genius.

I wouldn't say less entertaining, but how entertained are you when opponents shoot and hit shot after unguarded shot? When below average point guards come into YOUR building and look like all stars? When you can't depend on your center to block even 1 shot per game?
Got a few alley-oops? great.
Couple of prayer last second game winners? Good we need them, cuz we ain't winning many games without them.
PresIke
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11/21/2007  3:27 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by PresIke:

Not sure I am misreading your post Panos, but the assumption that someone "CAPABLE" comes in is wrong. Any fool can figure out that firing Isiah may be the first step towards doing that, and figure out that someone "capable" can come in...

So writing an article about that is something we're suppossed to go "oooooh" and "ahhh" about?

What some of the "haters" here may not realize is that many of the so-called "lovers" supported certain guys like Isiah, etc. because of the reality of having Dolan, and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's.

The real move is get Dolan out of here, but the problem is that is likely not going to happen, so we have to HOPE he does something good.

We all like the idea of Colangelo, Walsh, and a few others coming in, but how do we know that's who will come? Maybe Dolan finally listens to the critics, but how do we know he will. What's so special about asking for someone capable after Isiah? Any of us could have said the same thing, and the premise reeks of condescension towards Knick fans.

"and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's."

Holy mackeral

i disagree with ike 100%. this team, to me, is not more entertaining. this team is full of guys that don't know how to play basketball. they're just out there looking to go 1 on 1. those layden team's were far inferior talent wise yet still managed to win more games than this squad. dice goes out for the season and the team fights for 37 wins. that team was FAR more entertaining than any team isiah has put on the floor, imho.

DJ, not NOW. Of course they are AWFUL and a DISGRACE now, but up until the disaster this season, there was some entertaining ball in there, and some glimmers of hope here and there.

At least we had young players to have SOME hope for. Maybe some of you had no faith in them but for many fans at least that offered a glimmer. DJ within two years of Layden taking over we went from 50 game winner to 30 game winner. Did Isiah take over a winning team? No, so the comparisons are moot in regard to Layden's record early on. He added the worst contracts in the history of b-ball vs. talent that began this travesty, and brought in no young talent at all. I can't believe some of you even think that we had more hope under Layden than Isiah. Revisionist history, if you ask me.

Entertaining ball...

Guys layden brought in that gotten significant playing time:

Shandon
Spoon
Van Horn
Ward
Doleac
Mutombo
Eisley


vs.

Isiah's:

Lee
Crawford
Curry
Marbury
Balkman
Q
Jeffries
Collins
M. Rose
Taylor
T. Thomas
Frye


Isiah brought in some bad players, no doubt, but compare the better players he has brought in to the team that Layden had and if either team was more entertaining and it's not even close, IMHO. Some of you all are never going to agree, and now the venom towards Isiah is so high (with good reason) that this argument may be impossible to conduct.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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11/21/2007  3:30 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Number one, stop calling people haters for thinking that Dolan isn't an excuse for incompetence.

Huh? This is not what I am saying at all. Btw, the question is what to DO, not what to think. Thinking and and doing aren't the same. My point is that fans can't change Dolan as owner easily. How is that an excuse? Of course I want him to hire someone in the long term interests as a fan. My point is that we all know he is a problem. I don't even get what you are arguing here.

I Don't even get why what I'm saying is so upsetting to some here. I'm saying that we all want someone who replaces Isiah to improve the culture of the Knicks.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Panos
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11/21/2007  3:32 PM
Pres, what I can't understand is this.

We both agree that Isiah is not getting the job done. That is a *certainty*.
We both agree that we can't guarantee that the next guy will be better (tho I have to say I believe the odds pretty good).
What I don't understand is why you would *not* what to go with the *uncertainty* of maybe getting somebody better, rather then the *certainty* of failure that Isiah brings.
Panos
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11/21/2007  3:33 PM
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by Bippity10:

Number one, stop calling people haters for thinking that Dolan isn't an excuse for incompetence.

Huh? This is not what I am saying at all. Btw, the question is what to DO, not what to think. Thinking and and doing aren't the same. My point is that fans can't change Dolan as owner easily. How is that an excuse? Of course I want him to hire someone in the long term interests as a fan. My point is that we all know he is a problem. I don't even get what you are arguing here.

I Don't even get why what I'm saying is so upsetting to some here. I'm saying that we all want someone who replaces Isiah to improve the culture of the Knicks.

That's NOT what you were saying. You said that we couldn't be sure the next guy would be better than Isiah, which implied a resistance to change.
PresIke
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11/21/2007  3:34 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Number 2, stop calling this play "more entertaining"

Of course THIS current play is NOT entertaining. This is worse than I can remember. However, over the history of Isiah's tenure the players we have had vs. those that Layden's are. That doesn't mean the team was winning, but many fans -- maybe not you -- had those feelings over the course of Isiah's tenure, whether it be more athletic play or seeing young players -- which Layden never attempted to bring in -- show us things to get excited about for the future of the team. Even Frye, who is gone, created some excitement in his first season. Layden never even had someone like Channing Frye. That says a lot to me about who has had more entertaining players.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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11/21/2007  3:40 PM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by Bippity10:

Number one, stop calling people haters for thinking that Dolan isn't an excuse for incompetence.

Huh? This is not what I am saying at all. Btw, the question is what to DO, not what to think. Thinking and and doing aren't the same. My point is that fans can't change Dolan as owner easily. How is that an excuse? Of course I want him to hire someone in the long term interests as a fan. My point is that we all know he is a problem. I don't even get what you are arguing here.

I Don't even get why what I'm saying is so upsetting to some here. I'm saying that we all want someone who replaces Isiah to improve the culture of the Knicks.

That's NOT what you were saying. You said that we couldn't be sure the next guy would be better than Isiah, which implied a resistance to change.

Naw, I'm not resistant to change at all. In fact, I'm not against Isiah being fired right now, although it appears it will take longer than that. I just think that we all know his replacement needs to be someone "good" and that it felt like an insult to Knick fans to read the article when some of us have been just finding ways to cope with Dolan as owner for a lot longer than this year. Some of us do it by railing on the team with hope that change will come ("haters"), and others ("lovers") do it by feeling that change may not come so we have to go with what we've got.

In the end I feel this guy is insulting our intelligence as fans, and that we just want anyone but Isiah NOW without thinking of the consequences of making the decision without careful thinking about the right replacement.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Panos
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11/21/2007  3:42 PM
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by Bippity10:

Number 2, stop calling this play "more entertaining"

Of course THIS current play is NOT entertaining. This is worse than I can remember. However, over the history of Isiah's tenure the players we have had vs. those that Layden's are. That doesn't mean the team was winning, but many fans -- maybe not you -- had those feelings over the course of Isiah's tenure, whether it be more athletic play or seeing young players -- which Layden never attempted to bring in -- show us things to get excited about for the future of the team. Even Frye, who is gone, created some excitement in his first season. Layden never even had someone like Channing Frye. That says a lot to me about who has had more entertaining players.

First of all for the record, I hate the job that Layden did.
However, for the sake of comparison:
Layden had 1 single high pick, a #9 pick and took Sweetney, who was at least as effective as Channing while he was here. He rebounded, scored in the post, and manned up.
Isiah has had 3 high picks (someone say we were NOT rebuilding? funny that): #8: Channing, see above,
and a #2 and #9 which became Curry. NOTE also that we earned our #2 and #9 lottery picks with Curry ALREADY ON THE TEAM! A lot of good he did us!
So how can you really compare the two?
PresIke
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11/21/2007  3:44 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Bippity10:

Bast-ard

It's so true. We keep finding scapegoats. We keep firing coaches and trading players and everyone new that comes in falls into the same traps. It's time to reset and develop the culture first. Bring in proven winners with proven track records and give them all rights to make decisions. Then focus on finding a true franchise type player. While you are searching for him you decide to only target college players from winning programs that work hard on the court. You bring in vets on short term contracts that know two things: Winning and playing hard. Then when you are lucky enough to find that franchise caliber player you know how have a hard working core to teach and mentor him. As he develops you now start filling in the blanks with roll players that compliment his skills.

What we are doing is lunacy. Targeting players from losing teams with questionable pasts and work ethics. Surrounding them with their likenesses and winning just enough games to keep yourselves out of the running for guys like Durant, Oden, Lebron, Wade, Carmelo and Howard. How anyone can't see the lunacy of this and is still holding out hope that a team of guys that have never tried on D is going to morph into a title contender is beyond me.

I don't know that people can't see your point. Who doesn't already know how winning team are often built? It's about what it realistic to expect from this org. Remember that the Dolan's own this and they're just not going to do things in the manner that would seem to make the most sense. Look at how they're handling this current situation and how they've handled things since Ewing was sent away. It's a pretty good bet that they will continue to do things in a similar manner.

When Isiah 1st got here, what did Dolan say publicly? He didn't want a rebuild! Isiah has tried to work around that, but in the end we still have to deal with Dolan's way of doing things. At this point I just don't see any change from Dolan. If he fired Isiah, which doesn't look likely right now, he'd have to hire a great GM and from what i've been reading those GM's will want full control and Dolan won't agree to that. He wants to be involved and maintain control.

What i'm saying is that we'll always work with the Dolan handicap. We can only work around him, we can't get rid of him. Unless he can be convinced of the things you're saying and that approach to team building nothing will change.

Thank you nix. This is exactly what I am trying to say too. Until proven otherwise I am not convinced Dolan will not rebuild this team by blowing it up to lose for even longer. I pray I'm wrong, but it's hard to deny history.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Bippity10
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11/21/2007  3:45 PM
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by Bippity10:

Number 2, stop calling this play "more entertaining"

Of course THIS current play is NOT entertaining. This is worse than I can remember. However, over the history of Isiah's tenure the players we have had vs. those that Layden's are. That doesn't mean the team was winning, but many fans -- maybe not you -- had those feelings over the course of Isiah's tenure, whether it be more athletic play or seeing young players -- which Layden never attempted to bring in -- show us things to get excited about for the future of the team. Even Frye, who is gone, created some excitement in his first season. Layden never even had someone like Channing Frye. That says a lot to me about who has had more entertaining players.

I agree some fans got excited over false promises. Some did not. Some were mortified by the constant parade of misfits that Isiah brings in. I will be the first to admit that I am settling and have resigned myself to the type of players that Isiah targets. But not at one point have I been more entertained by this. Maybe it's becuase i grew up on the rarely dunking, mostly defensive and hustling Knicks of the 1990's, and have not found high flying losing teams to be very fun to watch. It's the "old school" in me.

On their own they were younger and more exciting. Together yeesh
Tim Thomas
Jalen Rose
Jerome James
Jared Jeffries
Stephon Marbury
Jamal Crawford
Zach Randolph
Mo Taylor
Steve Francis
Qyntel Woods
Jackie Butler

This is what passes for entertainment these days?
I just hope that people will like me
PresIke
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11/21/2007  3:48 PM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by Bippity10:

Number 2, stop calling this play "more entertaining"

Of course THIS current play is NOT entertaining. This is worse than I can remember. However, over the history of Isiah's tenure the players we have had vs. those that Layden's are. That doesn't mean the team was winning, but many fans -- maybe not you -- had those feelings over the course of Isiah's tenure, whether it be more athletic play or seeing young players -- which Layden never attempted to bring in -- show us things to get excited about for the future of the team. Even Frye, who is gone, created some excitement in his first season. Layden never even had someone like Channing Frye. That says a lot to me about who has had more entertaining players.

First of all for the record, I hate the job that Layden did.
However, for the sake of comparison:
Layden had 1 single high pick, a #9 pick and took Sweetney, who was at least as effective as Channing while he was here. He rebounded, scored in the post, and manned up.
Isiah has had 3 high picks (someone say we were NOT rebuilding? funny that): #8: Channing, see above,
and a #2 and #9 which became Curry. NOTE also that we earned our #2 and #9 lottery picks with Curry ALREADY ON THE TEAM! A lot of good he did us!
So how can you really compare the two?

I forgot about Sweetney. He had some moments, but no 30 point games like Frye did. Frye was one of the top rookies of his year, so I think he generated more excitement. Don't forget Layden traded our #7 pick and Camby for McDeyess who never even played a game for us! That did not work out at all. Layden was not into young players AT ALL. Nor was Van Gundy, who for the same reasons I do not think I want back either. Curry may not be a superstar but he has value. Briggs makes a good assessment of him, although a bit high in the scoring catergory, in that you surround him with the right players and he works. We don't have the right mix. I think his contract is very fair for the numbers he puts up. There are teams that would take him.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Bippity10
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11/21/2007  3:50 PM
I was fully aware of what the writer was saying years before this article was written. I mentioned this during the "Donald Duck is better than Don Chaney" days, and the "anybody but Lenny days" and the "LB will turn us into Phoenix East" days. I kept trying to warn everyone that firing or hiring one guy will not make a difference. I was consistently called a blind hater for this. What the writer has been saying has been obvious for years. Yet I'm not offended by him saying it. Why?
I just hope that people will like me
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FIRING ISIAH WILL NOT MAKE THE SUN SHINE ON THE KNICKS!
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