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Zach shot too much last night in the third
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Bippity10
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11/15/2007  1:45 PM
I have no problem with Zach. He has played extremely hard and showed some leadership by showing up last night. PRoblem is that so far he has helped us to a 2-5 record. Eventually we need to acquire someone that can change the actual record.
I just hope that people will like me
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TMS
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11/15/2007  1:55 PM
the point isn't whether you have a problem w/Zach as much as it is how much does this guy really help this team like u said... that's been the issue for everyone who's doubted the trade from the very beginning... again, we were taking yet another huge longterm salary & the question was what real effect would he actually have on this team? i agree, he showed some leadership by showing up last night after Steph went AWOL, but still no one is stepping up to Steph & telling him that his crap isn't gonna be tolerated... the amount of money we've spent on the players we have on this roster & not 1 of them wants to step up & take charge of this team, that's a disgrace.
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VDesai
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11/15/2007  2:00 PM
No one player was gonna put us over the top. Zach is a really nice piece and was available for a song. It made sense to get him, but obviously there still needs to be a lot of work done to this roster. Getting Zach shouldn't have been percieved as the move that was the last thing we needed to make us competetive.
King1
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11/15/2007  2:10 PM
Lets not forget Zach hasnt got arrested yet this year and it will happen. That will be great for the boards when it happens.
bobs3304
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11/15/2007  2:12 PM
Posted by King1:

Lets not forget Zach hasnt got arrested yet this year and it will happen. That will be great for the boards when it happens.

i lol'd.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
TMS
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11/15/2007  2:33 PM
Posted by VDesai:

No one player was gonna put us over the top. Zach is a really nice piece and was available for a song. It made sense to get him, but obviously there still needs to be a lot of work done to this roster. Getting Zach shouldn't have been percieved as the move that was the last thing we needed to make us competetive.

u call $61 million over the next 4 years "a song"? u gotta be kidding me dude... for that much money i want a legitimate franchise calibre player... otherwise what's the point? haven't we had enough Stephon Marbury's, Jalen Rose & Steve Francis type contracts on our books to last a lifetime at this point? please don't try to justify you being in favor of that deal by saying we didn't give up anything to get Zach... we gave up a helluva lot in cap space & salary & there's no way he'll ever be able to make a justifiable return on that investment.
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VDesai
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11/15/2007  2:40 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by VDesai:

No one player was gonna put us over the top. Zach is a really nice piece and was available for a song. It made sense to get him, but obviously there still needs to be a lot of work done to this roster. Getting Zach shouldn't have been percieved as the move that was the last thing we needed to make us competetive.

u call $61 million over the next 4 years "a song"? u gotta be kidding me dude... for that much money i want a legitimate franchise calibre player... otherwise what's the point? haven't we had enough Stephon Marbury's, Jalen Rose & Steve Francis type contracts on our books to last a lifetime at this point? please don't try to justify you being in favor of that deal by saying we didn't give up anything to get Zach... we gave up a helluva lot in cap space & salary & there's no way he'll ever be able to make a justifiable return on that investment.

I'm talking about talent wise- and that money was already committed for at least a year or two with Francis.

As far as the cap space- I've looked at this and posted this bunch of times, but doesn't really change things as much as everyone seems to think. They would not be under the cap in 2008/2009. In 2009/2010 you will probably see Curry and Crawford excersise their player options and opt out of their deals. With NBA salary inflation they will be probably due a raise at that point. Even with Zach still on the books at that point the Knicks will be under the cap at that point so long as they don't trade Steph for longer term money or re-up Curry/Craw. Of course at this point they will need to extend Lee- but even doing that wouldn't put them too behind the curve. The season after that Q and Jerome will come off the books and the Knicks should have very good flexibility.
King1
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11/15/2007  2:48 PM
Zach is making 17 million his last year which is 34 million with the luxury tax. You have to have a team not just all talented players. How did Florida win with one McDonald AA and UNC had 8? They wont because they were a team. They shared the ball, and didnt care who scored. This team has about 5 guys that want to win and the others it is about them.
VDesai
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11/15/2007  2:52 PM
Again, the Knicks aren't terrible this year b/c they lack offensive efficiency. You can point the Miami game or the Clipper game but he didn't play one of those games. It's the defense and as I've said before they need to a do a lot more tweaking to the roster before this job would be done. But I don't think this precludes Zach from being a piece.

As far as the luxury tax- what benefit were they getting from paying double Steve Francis' salary?
TMS
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11/15/2007  2:53 PM
In 2009/2010 you will probably see Curry and Crawford excersise their player options and opt out of their deals. With NBA salary inflation they will be probably due a raise at that point.

who says the Knicks would be obligated to re-sign either one of those guys at that point if they haven't shown they deserve to be back? you're talking about adding a $61 million dollar contract for the next 4 years, which is pretty much 2 Steve Francis contracts running back to back, for a player who won't help this team do much of anything but finish w/yet another 37-39 win record when it's all said & done... what was the point of it? does he address any of our key needs? was rebounding really a big issue w/this team coming into this season? was low post scoring? we needed a shotblocker & low post defender, both things that he does not do... this is just another example of Isiah going for the talent no matter how it fits or doesn't fit the other pieces that are already present, hoping that whatever he throws at the wall will stick... to say that Zach won't effect our cap situation 2 years down the road is oversimplifying the big picture here IMO... every big contract comes with a consequence... when you start hearing about how Zach's contract is untradeable in a couple years the same way we've heard it being said about Jalen & Francis, you'll come to realize it was a mistake to ever get him to begin with... but maybe since both those guys were traded, we could do the same for Zach, right? great, i can't wait til the never ending cycle continues when we trade Zach for yet another non-impact player w/an albatross contract that doesn't address any of our key needs... i just can't get enough of these 38 win type seasons, can u?
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VDesai
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11/15/2007  2:58 PM
The problem wasn't getting Zach- that was the kind of risk that made sense in the Knicks position. Just like the Crawford trade. It was free talent for money- the same concept as FA. And they were young players that were the kinds of players we would be in a position to sign anyway. Flawed yes- but flawed is what hits the FA market in the first place.

The trades that have really hamstrung us were Curry and Marbury trades where we paid dearly by mortgaging a lot of our future assets on flawed players.

We've shown we could've just as easily got flawed players for free. And as a duo Crawford and Randolph are arguably better than Curry and Marbs. And we didn't use picks.

I can obviously see the criticisms on Randolph but really the contract stuff is overstated when you look at the numbers and we didn't give up picks- our number one way to acquire future young talent, in order to get him.



[Edited by - vdesai on 11-15-2007 2:59 PM]

[Edited by - vdesai on 11-15-2007 3:01 PM]
bobs3304
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11/15/2007  3:00 PM
Wages of Wins said for whatever its worth that he can be worth his contract if he keeps up the production...

DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
bobs3304
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11/15/2007  3:01 PM
Posted by VDesai:

The problem wasn't getting Zach- that was the kind of risk that made sense in the Knicks position. Just like the Crawford trade.
The trades that have really hamstrung us were Curry and Marbury trades where we paid dearly by mortgaging a lot of our future assets on flawed players.


I agree mostly with you.

Zbo and Craw still hurt from the cap, but I'd still keep them around even if we tore this thing down...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
TMS
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11/15/2007  3:03 PM
if we trade Curry then having Zach all of a sudden makes sense... do i see Isiah trading Curry? who knows... we haven't seen him trade any of his other big acquisitions, so i don't expect anything big to happen unless we're somehow stealing Kobe away from the Lakers.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
bobs3304
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11/15/2007  3:04 PM
Posted by TMS:

if we trade Curry then having Zach all of a sudden makes sense... do i see Isiah trading Curry? who knows... we haven't seen him trade any of his other big acquisitions, so i don't expect anything big to happen unless we're somehow stealing Kobe away from the Lakers.


Yup. Zach does everything Curry can't, minus interior defense.

He's a legit upgrade, no one can deny that, not even me.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
VDesai
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11/15/2007  3:06 PM
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by VDesai:

The problem wasn't getting Zach- that was the kind of risk that made sense in the Knicks position. Just like the Crawford trade.
The trades that have really hamstrung us were Curry and Marbury trades where we paid dearly by mortgaging a lot of our future assets on flawed players.



I agree mostly with you.

Zbo and Craw still hurt from the cap, but I'd still keep them around even if we tore this thing down...


A Z-Bo/Craw type player is exactly the kind of player Rashard Lewis is IMO. Young, talented, flawed, but worth having. That's what Orlando acquired with all their cap space. But the difference was they kept their picks and acquired a real power player from the Draft with Dwight Howard. We could've built around the draftees while acquiring guys like Zach and Craw in money dumps where we gave up little in the way of usable talent. That would've been the smart way to build it....
TMS
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11/15/2007  3:08 PM
if Isiah can somehow swing a Curry, Craw, etc. trade for Kobe, i'll eat anything i ever said about the Zach acquisition... until then, it's just another in a long list of nonsensical moves he's made since he's become our GM.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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Zach shot too much last night in the third
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