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Who is more culpable?
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islesfan
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Who is more culpable for the embarrassment that the Knicks have become over the last 4 years and with no end in sight?
Isiah Thomas
Stephon Marbury
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TMS
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11/13/2007  2:51 PM
i blame Marbury... he's added absolutely nothing to this team ever since he got here... always been a negative influence on our young kids & constantly spouting off w/the empty promises that he always fails to deliver on.

Marbury has been more of an embarassment to this organization than Isiah IMHO... at least Isiah has some redeeming qualities w/some of the players he's been able to draft, who i still happen to like, as well as a couple players in Curry & Jamal who (i may be in the distinct minority here) i still say have a chance to be Allstar calibre players under the right coaching.
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JrZyHuStLa
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11/13/2007  4:42 PM
Posted by TMS:

i blame Marbury... he's added absolutely nothing to this team ever since he got here... always been a negative influence on our young kids & constantly spouting off w/the empty promises that he always fails to deliver on.

Marbury has been more of an embarassment to this organization than Isiah IMHO... at least Isiah has some redeeming qualities w/some of the players he's been able to draft, who i still happen to like, as well as a couple players in Curry & Jamal who (i may be in the distinct minority here) i still say have a chance to be Allstar calibre players under the right coaching.

TMS, good post but I think you're not looking at the bigger picture.

The Knicks are in a business that is judged by one thing and one thing only, and that is WINNING.

Isiah as Team President and GM, has failed miserably to bring in the appropriate personel which would allow his product to win. Steph is only a microcosm of Isiah's failures here. I know its the players who are the ones hitting the hardwood every other day, but there's no doubt that the Knicks just don't have and haven't had the horses to win in a long long time.
TMS
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11/13/2007  4:52 PM
yes it's true that Isiah brought in Marbury to begin with, there's no arguing that, but i believe Isiah's intentions were always to help this franchise win a championship... he just cast his lot w/the wrong player... Marbury on the other hand, IMO has come in here w/a feeling of entitlement ever since he got to MSG, thinking he owned the place because he was the GM's pet, because he was from Coney Island (big whoopdy freakin' hoo!), because he thought he was "the best PG in the NBA", the list goes on & on... he said & did whatever the hell he wanted, he undermined & alienated a HOF coach (the coach didn't do much to help obviously), he was a pisspoor example for our young players to emulate (not talking about his charitable contributions, i'm talking everything else), & he played just as big a role in the deterioration of the Knicks' public image as Isiah has.

this isn't a clearcut choice... it's pretty close in my eyes, but i think if Marbury came in w/the right mindset from the get go & took the opportunity that Isiah gave him by bringing him here to begin with, this entire situation could have looked a lot different right about now... he seemed to get it for a little while there when he & KVH were still playing together & the team seemed to be gelling, but that quickly ended after Isiah traded him away for Tiny Tim... after that, Marbury started acting like the idiot he's been ever since.
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Bippity10
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11/13/2007  5:01 PM
That one trade for Fugazy was the beginning of the end for Marbs.
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matt
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11/13/2007  5:45 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

That one trade for Fugazy was the beginning of the end for Marbs.

Up until that point it did seem like things were getting better. I would have liked to have seen what would have happened to that team with KVH
Solace
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11/13/2007  5:48 PM
Ugh too close to call. Dolan belongs on the poll too, I'll agree, ... and then it gets real close.

Terrible, awful and craptastic. I'm not sure how to rank such glaring reviews in a sensible order.
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Vmart
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11/13/2007  5:49 PM
I'm on Isiah's side in this. The last game was what made Isiah's decision very simple and easy. Marbury's defense and his decision making in the last few minutes of the Miami game pretty much told Isiah that a move need to be made because the Knicks are going nowhere fast with Marbury. You have to commend Isiah for sticking with Marbury all this time, but he finally drew a line that he didn't let Stephon cross good for him.
Solace
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11/13/2007  5:50 PM
Posted by Vmart:

You have to commend Isiah for sticking with Marbury all this time

No you don't. Only an idiot would've.
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VDesai
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11/13/2007  5:54 PM
I vote for who cares. They both need to get the feck out of here.
Vmart
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11/13/2007  6:00 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Vmart:

You have to commend Isiah for sticking with Marbury all this time

No you don't. Only an idiot would've.

In a friendship way.

Solace
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11/13/2007  6:04 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Vmart:

You have to commend Isiah for sticking with Marbury all this time

No you don't. Only an idiot would've.

In a friendship way.

Was it even friendship? I saw it more as Isiah living vicariously through Marbury. Finally, I think Isiah sees the flaw in this. Isiah was a heady smart point guard who did what it took to win (and I admit this even not liking Isiah). Marbury is a shoot-first, me-first guy who would score negative on an IQ test ("His IQ is so low, you can't test for it, you have to dig for it" Ha ha). Things finally breaking down could be Isiah finally accepting that Stephon Marbury is not Isiah #2. Stephon Marbury isn't even mature enough to be considered an adult. Thus, the issues.

So, no, I don't think there was any real friendship to start with, and I think Isiah should've woken up a lot sooner.
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nixluva
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11/13/2007  6:12 PM
I'm still not sure why anyone would say isiah. he's not perfect, but does anyone really believe that he doesn't have the teams best interests at heart? This guy wants this team to win so bad and I never question that. When a player is working against the best interests of the team he moves them. ie Francis. In Steph's case he has punished Steph in the past when he hasn't done what he was supposed to do. Steph didn't like it, but he had to obey. In this case he really took it hard and is thinking only of himself and not the team.

Isiah tho is trying to improve the TEAM. If it was a mistake bringing in Steph, very few people here thought so and that's a verified FACT. So you all thought the same way that Isiah did at the time. He never offered Steph up as perfect, but he took a chance that he was a major upgrade from what we had and how can you assume that Steph is not going to go along with your direction as coach and GM?

Ask yourselves this. Isiah has made moves to improve the team and if Steph played the point better do you not think that this team would have a win or 2 more at this point? So Isiah's moves aren't all terrible and this team isn't all bad and in need of blowing up. We need better PG play and leadership and so Isiah was making a move to do that. How can you fault him for making the RIGHT decision this time?
islesfan
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11/13/2007  6:19 PM
Posted by nixluva:

I'm still not sure why anyone would say isiah. he's not perfect, but does anyone really believe that he doesn't have the teams best interests at heart? This guy wants this team to win so bad and I never question that. When a player is working against the best interests of the team he moves them. ie Francis. In Steph's case he has punished Steph in the past when he hasn't done what he was supposed to do. Steph didn't like it, but he had to obey. In this case he really took it hard and is thinking only of himself and not the team.

Isiah tho is trying to improve the TEAM. If it was a mistake bringing in Steph, very few people here thought so and that's a verified FACT. So you all thought the same way that Isiah did at the time. He never offered Steph up as perfect, but he took a chance that he was a major upgrade from what we had and how can you assume that Steph is not going to go along with your direction as coach and GM?

Ask yourselves this. Isiah has made moves to improve the team and if Steph played the point better do you not think that this team would have a win or 2 more at this point? So Isiah's moves aren't all terrible and this team isn't all bad and in need of blowing up. We need better PG play and leadership and so Isiah was making a move to do that. How can you fault him for making the RIGHT decision this time?

Because Isiah refused to back LB for making the right decision 2 years ago.

Isiah is sabotaging this season.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Vmart
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11/13/2007  7:37 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by nixluva:

I'm still not sure why anyone would say isiah. he's not perfect, but does anyone really believe that he doesn't have the teams best interests at heart? This guy wants this team to win so bad and I never question that. When a player is working against the best interests of the team he moves them. ie Francis. In Steph's case he has punished Steph in the past when he hasn't done what he was supposed to do. Steph didn't like it, but he had to obey. In this case he really took it hard and is thinking only of himself and not the team.

Isiah tho is trying to improve the TEAM. If it was a mistake bringing in Steph, very few people here thought so and that's a verified FACT. So you all thought the same way that Isiah did at the time. He never offered Steph up as perfect, but he took a chance that he was a major upgrade from what we had and how can you assume that Steph is not going to go along with your direction as coach and GM?

Ask yourselves this. Isiah has made moves to improve the team and if Steph played the point better do you not think that this team would have a win or 2 more at this point? So Isiah's moves aren't all terrible and this team isn't all bad and in need of blowing up. We need better PG play and leadership and so Isiah was making a move to do that. How can you fault him for making the RIGHT decision this time?

Because Isiah refused to back LB for making the right decision 2 years ago.

Isiah is sabotaging this season.

Maybe Isiah knows he has a pick in the bag this year. LB never understood that the NYK pick was going to the Bulls.
TMS
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11/13/2007  7:49 PM
neither one of these guys deserve any accolades bottomline... they've both made a running joke of the Knicks franchise ever since they got here, just like their clueless owner's done over the past several years... this is an absolute disgrace on every level imaginable.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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