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oohah and rembee: If a real fan never wants his team to lose, what does it say about a GM who does?
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kam77
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11/2/2007  4:59 PM
With all the information available to fans these days many no longer feel confined and obliged to play the dumb-blond cheerleader role.

I don't think supporters of the Knicks like being characterized as dumb blond cheerleaders. My hair is black.

Every man must have a code. If you pick an affiliation, you keep it. If you trash your affiliation constantly because you always think you're smarter than the GM (whoever that may be at the time) then you've really become a critic of the team rather than a team booster. Its fine to be a critic. But if you do it ALL THE TIME the fan in you probably died and instead you've become a fan of your own voice.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
AUTOADVERT
arkrud
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11/2/2007  5:00 PM
I think this was not about win now or develop players.
It was about Isiah to be The MAN. The only one to take the credit for all. And yes - the blame...
He is a poison for team sport and the biggest divider for the fan base.
People like he should be kept away from team sport and I hope NBA owners already get enough of him.




[Edited by - arkrud on 11-02-2007 5:01 PM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
oohah
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11/2/2007  5:04 PM
1. For a guy who wants to play this down to specific words, where does Malone say he wanted to make the kind of big moves Isiah gets killed for?

Nowhere. As a matter of fact neither Malone nor Isiah says anything in that article. There is a an orphan quote: "philosophical differences," but I am not sure if it is to be attributed to Thomas, Malone, or the Sikh guy they always show in the stands at Raptors games.

All I see is a lot of rumor Mongering.
2. For a guy who insists that the instant a fan doesn't want his team to win he's no longer a fan, I see you peddling hard to draw differences and distinctions for GMs.

It's not that hard. Neither distinction reveals a "desire to lose" or the opinion that losing is good. They are simply different methodologies.
Oohah, I'm pressed too pressed for time now to do the conversation justice, but I will say two things:

+

What a hero.

This is a strange thread. You call me out, but you don't have time to argue with me. Then you you sign off with a sarcastic one-off?

I almost feel like you are looking for a fight.

I feel too good today to be brought down. I hope you feel better after the game tonight, and I hope it's because the Knicks won, not because they lost.

Later Blue.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
djsunyc
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11/2/2007  5:08 PM
Posted by oohah:


Nowhere. As a matter of fact neither Malone nor Isiah says anything in that article. There is a an orphan quote: "philosophical differences," but I am not sure if it is to be attributed to Thomas, Malone, or the Sikh guy they always show in the stands at Raptors games.

his nickname is superfan and he is close friends with vince carter. raptors fans hate him. btw, he's a car dealer.
TrueBlue
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11/2/2007  5:26 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by TrueBlue:

This is the kind of post that makes a nuthugger approach the bridge. The next will result in the nuthugger jumping.

I'm so tired of you. Will you ever stop being so condescending. REALLY it seems like maturity skipped right over you. There's no reason to post the way you do.


If you feel you aren't a nuthugger then obviously this post doesn't apply to you. I do realize the sensitivity of nerves and maybe I struck one of yours I don't know.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
islesfan
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11/2/2007  5:34 PM
Seriously, does anybody lose any sleep because a few simpletons think that fans can only behave and think a certain way?

Cavs by 6-10.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Silverfuel
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11/2/2007  5:41 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by TrueBlue:

This is the kind of post that makes a nuthugger approach the bridge. The next will result in the nuthugger jumping.
I'm so tired of you. Will you ever stop being so condescending. REALLY it seems like maturity skipped right over you. There's no reason to post the way you do.
If you feel you aren't a nuthugger then obviously this post doesn't apply to you. I do realize the sensitivity of nerves and maybe I struck one of yours I don't know.
I'm amazed at how big of a dick head you are.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
SupremeCommander
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11/2/2007  5:50 PM
Who the **** cares about this stuff anymore? I think we can all agree that being a fan of the Knicks should be better than it's been post Y2K. I'm done arguing the merits of fandom... get me to the second round of the playoffs each year at a minimum and I'm golden. It sucks I never seen a Knicks championship, but I'll take annual playoff letdowns over this **** any day and twice on Sundays. Anyway management can take me there is fine with me. Isiah's gay, bastard child can take the Knicks there for all I care. Jsut get it done. No more excuses, please.
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
Marv
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11/2/2007  5:52 PM
Posted by SupremeCommander:

Who the **** cares about this stuff anymore? I think we can all agree that being a fan of the Knicks should be better than it's been post Y2K. I'm done arguing the merits of fandom... get me to the second round of the playoffs each year at a minimum and I'm golden. It sucks I never seen a Knicks championship, but I'll take annual playoff letdowns over this **** any day and twice on Sundays. Anyway management can take me there is fine with me. Isiah's gay, bastard child can take the Knicks there for all I care. Jsut get it done. No more excuses, please.

marbs is gay??????
SupremeCommander
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11/2/2007  6:05 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by SupremeCommander:

Who the **** cares about this stuff anymore? I think we can all agree that being a fan of the Knicks should be better than it's been post Y2K. I'm done arguing the merits of fandom... get me to the second round of the playoffs each year at a minimum and I'm golden. It sucks I never seen a Knicks championship, but I'll take annual playoff letdowns over this **** any day and twice on Sundays. Anyway management can take me there is fine with me. Isiah's gay, bastard child can take the Knicks there for all I care. Jsut get it done. No more excuses, please.

marbs is gay??????


Perhaps, but I meant Isiah's actual gay, bastard son. Suprising that his bigotry doesn't stop with women, but he has a son who he barely speaks with from out of wedlock, and he is gay.
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
fishmike
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11/2/2007  6:08 PM
Posted by oohah:

Blueseats, I'm surprised at you. Drawing the conclusion that Isiah wanted to lose from this quote is the worst kind of word twisting.

If anything, it shows that he understands that the right way to build a team is usually a gradual process.

If anything, it reveals that his methodology in NYC has been affected greatly by Dolan.

oohah
very very very very very very very gradual

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BlueSeats
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11/2/2007  6:09 PM
Posted by oohah:
1. For a guy who wants to play this down to specific words, where does Malone say he wanted to make the kind of big moves Isiah gets killed for?

Nowhere. As a matter of fact neither Malone nor Isiah says anything in that article. There is a an orphan quote: "philosophical differences," but I am not sure if it is to be attributed to Thomas, Malone, or the Sikh guy they always show in the stands at Raptors games.

All I see is a lot of rumor Mongering.
2. For a guy who insists that the instant a fan doesn't want his team to win he's no longer a fan, I see you peddling hard to draw differences and distinctions for GMs.

It's not that hard. Neither distinction reveals a "desire to lose" or the opinion that losing is good. They are simply different methodologies.
Oohah, I'm pressed too pressed for time now to do the conversation justice, but I will say two things:

+

What a hero.

This is a strange thread. You call me out, but you don't have time to argue with me. Then you you sign off with a sarcastic one-off?

I almost feel like you are looking for a fight.

I feel too good today to be brought down. I hope you feel better after the game tonight, and I hope it's because the Knicks won, not because they lost.

Later Blue.

oohah


I wasn't signing off ooh, I'm telling you I'm not able to do the discussion justice at the moment. That is still true.

Still, you have two rules going on, correct me if I'm wrong:

1. For fans they must root to win every game, the moment they don't they are no longer fans.

2. For GM's there are no such rules, they can have different approaches.

Is that right?

And somehow, between the two, you've decided that if a fan choses to apply his intellect, and think more like a GM and less like a cheerleader, he can no longer consider himself a fan.

Am I close?
oohah
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11/2/2007  6:29 PM
1. For fans they must root to win every game, the moment they don't they are no longer fans.

Fans are happier when their teams win and they root for their team to win. Please try to take this in context and not exaggerate what I am saying. I am not talking about being happy in the larger sense, for example in life.

When you are actually happy that your team is losing, you rejoice as they lose, and cheer their opponents, you have become a fan of something other than your team.

I've stated this again and again, I don't really feel like doing so another time.
2. For GM's there are no such rules, they can have different approaches.

Being a GM has nothing to do with the first quote above. But GM's job is to get his team to win. His methodology may differ from another GM's. Some take a slower approach, others do it with big splashy moves. Both Riley and Dumars have been successful recently with different approaches. I don't see what wanting your team to lose has to do with a GM's approach.
And somehow, between the two, you've decided that if a fan choses to apply his intellect, and think more like a GM and less like a cheerleader, he can no longer consider himself a fan.

I don't consider rooting against your team because of the baseless prediction that the team will be better off, whoever the next GM is, to be "applying intellect". I would characterize that as wild conjecture.

To back that up for you, I submit Layden followed by Isiah. Everyone thought that whoever replaces Layden was automatically an improvement. I expect that at this point you will jump to the conclusion that I think Isiah is worse than Layden.

***

Now I will make an assumption: You believe that Isiah has to go and the team will be better off without him. So your logic is that rooting for the Knicks to lose, equals Isiah is out equals the team is better.

Please tell me what makes you so sure of this, and why it won't be another Kevin McHale situation with the next GM.

I believe I have supported my position well. If I am wrong about yours, please correct me.

oohah





Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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11/2/2007  6:31 PM
By the way, I do understand that sometimes long-term development means sacrificing wins. That doesn't mean I am going to root for my team to lose, be happy when they lose, or cheer for my team's opponents.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
BlueSeats
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11/2/2007  7:44 PM
oohah, you're trying to put this into a context of absolutes, but there are no such things. One makes educated guesses or goes on their instincts, like a GM.

In my mind, Isiah and Marbury's time is done here, and the sooner we put them behind us the better. There's no less guarantee in that working than in a GM wanting to take a step backward to raise his draft placement, or dumping a talented but poisonous player. No guarantees.

I didn't invent the concept of addition by subtraction, and not everyone who applies it has sold his team down river. Perhaps it's something like your willingness to go under the knife for the overall well being of your knee. Short term setback for long term gain.

Or should I assume when you went for your surgery you no longer wanted the best for your knee?
islesfan
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11/2/2007  7:48 PM
Long-term development, which includes finding competent management, means sacrificing wins.

See how easy that was?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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11/2/2007  8:16 PM
If anything, it reveals that his methodology in NYC has been affected greatly by Dolan.
I think there is truth to that and was truth to it for Layden too. I think Dolan will bring out the worst in any GM who comes here.
oohah
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11/2/2007  8:49 PM
oohah, you're trying to put this into a context of absolutes, but there are no such things. One makes educated guesses or goes on their instincts, like a GM.

In my mind, Isiah and Marbury's time is done here, and the sooner we put them behind us the better. There's no less guarantee in that working than in a GM wanting to take a step backward to raise his draft placement, or dumping a talented but poisonous player. No guarantees.

I'm the one dealing in absolutes? Hardly! I'm the one saying we don't know so I'll just root in the meantime.

You think we are better off without Isiah/Marbury? Fine! That is understandable. I think that is a separate issue from rooting for your team to lose, a question which you haven't answered for me yet.

And you should at least have an idea who it is that we are better off with. GM's make educated guesses? Okay. I'm still waiting to hear your educated guess about who is stepping in as a better replacement than Isiah. I'm sorry, but "anyone" is not a satisfactory answer, I think that is lazy reasoning. And again, I see that as separate from rooting for your team to lose.

Draft position? Maybe you get LeBron, Maybe you get Bogut. Maybe you get Pervis Ellison. Maybe you get Duncan. Maybe You get Kenyon Martin. The Heat didn't win the LeBron draft, but they won a championship with Wade. Maybe Carmello wins one before LeBron. Maybe Lebron never wins one. Maybe Oden breaks down like Ralph Sampson.

So you are right. There are no guarantees, no absolutes. That's why, unlike those who seem so "absolutely certain" that the next man they can't name is better than Isiah that they root against their team, I just choose to root.

And if Isiah is fired and Jerry West replaces him, I'll support that move. I just hope he does a better job than he did in Memphis so far, but there are no guarantees.

I'll address the rest of your post later.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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11/2/2007  8:58 PM
I didn't invent the concept of addition by subtraction, and not everyone who applies it has sold his team down river. Perhaps it's something like your willingness to go under the knife for the overall well being of your knee. Short term setback for long term gain.

Or should I assume when you went for your surgery you no longer wanted the best for your knee?

Okay, later is now. Believing in "addition by subtraction" is not even close to the same as rooting against your team, being happy that they lost, or cheering for the other team.

I think the team is better without Crawford. I still root for him to play well.

***

The knee analogy breaks down in on so many levels, it's hard for me to address it, but I'll try:

Knee surgery is no certain thing, I had 5 on one knee, and 1 on the other that worked out great. No guarantees.

But there is some science applied to it. It's not like I ran in the hospital saying: Just cut me open and perform any knee surgery because any surgery is better than what is happening now!

Or, an even closer analogy to rooting for your team to lose: I hope my knee gets more fukced up because I'll get a surgery that makes it better than it was! I hope this surgery doesn't work out because the next one will be better!

Instead, I root for my knee to get better, or if you like: "win".

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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oohah and rembee: If a real fan never wants his team to lose, what does it say about a GM who does?
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