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Everybody Knows The Knicks are Making The Playoffs, So What's The Problem?
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Andrew
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10/31/2007  11:19 AM
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Bippity10
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10/31/2007  11:21 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Blueseats - I feel your pain. I think the beating up on Jamal for never being on a playoff team is like beating up Barkley or Ewing for never having won a ring.

The new Knicks are composed of a bunch of guys, most under 27, that have a helluva lot to learn. While some kvetch over Marbury, Jerome and Malik, they totally overlook the possibilities of guys who have yet to find their collective voice.

"Ask not what da yoots can do for you,

ask what YOU can do for da yoots"

Vote Wilson Chandler.

I'm with you on this. I know Isiah sees it to because he built the team. But I have a hard time understanding why he isn't finding at least one guy to lead this bunch on the court. Someone to galvanize them. Someone to nurture them. In three years we keep targeting vets with questionable backgrounds but haven't targeted a leader to help set them straight. Isiah can't do this on his own.
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BlueSeats
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10/31/2007  11:58 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by misterearl:

Blueseats - I feel your pain. I think the beating up on Jamal for never being on a playoff team is like beating up Barkley or Ewing for never having won a ring.

The new Knicks are composed of a bunch of guys, most under 27, that have a helluva lot to learn. While some kvetch over Marbury, Jerome and Malik, they totally overlook the possibilities of guys who have yet to find their collective voice.

"Ask not what da yoots can do for you,

ask what YOU can do for da yoots"

Vote Wilson Chandler.

I'm with you on this. I know Isiah sees it to because he built the team. But I have a hard time understanding why he isn't finding at least one guy to lead this bunch on the court. Someone to galvanize them. Someone to nurture them. In three years we keep targeting vets with questionable backgrounds but haven't targeted a leader to help set them straight. Isiah can't do this on his own.

It was the same with the coaches: could Isiah share power?

I find it hard to imagine Isiah bringing in a guy who's packing his own cachet and ego, like say, Jason Kidd. Isiah likes to surround himself with guys who adore him, take his number for their own, look to him for enlightenment and salvation, etc.

I think Isiah would feel threatened by an established leader, or anyone who might vie for clout with the organization. I think this has been proven many times over.


[Edited by - blueseats on 10-31-2007 11:59 AM]
RemBee76
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10/31/2007  12:08 PM
Jason Kidd, huh? Was he available?

No one questions the need for leaders and proven winners on this team. To that end, who should/would/could we have acquired? Seems like the Spurs are doing everything they can to hang on to their guys.

I think Isiah has, in general, picked up solid young guys in the hopes that they grow into leaders on the court. David Lee and Mardy Collins were possibilities after last season, Channing Frye was a solid four year guy who didn't pan out.

And no, not every vet we have acquired has a questionable back-ground, but its unfortunate for us that in this league the available players with talent often do.



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BlueSeats
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10/31/2007  12:17 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Jason Kidd, huh? Was he available?

No one questions the need for leaders and proven winners on this team. To that end, who should/would/could we have acquired? Seems like the Spurs are doing everything they can to hang on to their guys.

I think Isiah has, in general, picked up solid young guys in the hopes that they grow into leaders on the court. David Lee and Mardy Collins were possibilities after last season, Channing Frye was a solid four year guy who didn't pan out.

And no, not every vet we have acquired has a questionable back-ground, but its unfortunate for us that in this league the available players with talent often do.

I was wholly expecting someone to get semantical or make a similar petty point of whoever I chose to illustrate my point. Why am I least surprised it was you? Kidd is simply one example of the kind of guy I easily see Isiah threatened by, and therefor undesirous of, in spite of being one of the best at leading on the floor.

And if one wants to be petty, it's not as 'unfortunate' as it is predictable, and therefore needs to be accounted for in one's rebuild approach. I happen to think leadership is the first thing one should try to aqcuire for a young and inexperienced team, but Isiah apparently puts athleticism and devotion above all else.




[Edited by - blueseats on 10-31-2007 12:20 PM]
islesfan
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10/31/2007  12:31 PM
"Whatever happens outside of (the court) is something that we really can't control. But what happens in between these four lines we have a great deal of control over." - Isiah


Why does it seem that the exact opposite is true?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
RemBee76
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10/31/2007  12:38 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Kidd is simply one example of the kind of guy I easily see Isiah threatened by, and therefor undesirous of, in spite of being one of the best at leading on the floor.

And this is the kind of thinking that I am the most perplexed by on this board. People are so obsessed of dissecting Isiah's personality that they dismiss the more obvious explaination out of hand. You really think Isiah wouldn't acquire Kidd if he was available because he would be "threatened"? Sorry if my point was "petty", but yours is just inane.

No, its that crazy Isiah. Forget that the Knicks have made it their MO to acquire vets, many with "spotty" backgrounds, for years. In 1999 we paired an underachieving PF with a questionable work ethic with a player with more character issues than anyone Isiah has acquired, and rode them to an improbable run to the finals. Could it be that "Talent" is the more common denominator to winning than experience?

And maybe one should take note that the young players Isiah has acquired in the draft by and large have been 3 and 4 year guys from good college programs, not just the “dumb athletes” that some are so fond of saying that Isiah is fond of.

Not a petty point, an obvious one. But why let that get in the way of yet another "cult of Isiah's personality" posting.

But if pointing out that Jason Kidd is unavailable is "petty", I'd like to hear some examples of players Isiah would be "threatened" by that are not so.


[Edited by - rembee76 on 10-31-2007 12:42 PM]
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
BasketballJones
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10/31/2007  12:42 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Kidd is simply one example of the kind of guy I easily see Isiah threatened by, and therefor undesirous of, in spite of being one of the best at leading on the floor.

And this is the kind of thinking that I am the most perplexed by on this board. People are so obsessed of dissecting Isiah's personality that they dismiss the more obvious explaination out of hand. You really think Isiah wouldn't acquire Kidd if he was available because he would be "threatened"? Sorry if my point was "petty", but yours is just inane.

No, its that crazy Isiah. Forget that the Knicks have made it their MO to acquire vets, many with "spotty" backgrounds, for years. In 1999 we paired an underachieving PF with a questionable work ethic with a player with more character issues than anyone Isiah has acquired, and rode them to an improbable run to the finals. Could it be that "Talent" is the more common denominator to winning than experience?

And maybe one should take note that the young players Isiah has acquired in the draft by and large have been 3 and 4 year guys from good college programs, not just the “dumb athletes” that some are so fond of saying that Isiah is fond of.

Not a petty point, an obvious one. But why let that get in the way of yet another "cult of Isiah's personality" posting.

I can see Thomas acquiring Kidd if he was available. In fact, I think it would be in character as he always tries to get the best guy. The problem IMO is that those guys don't usually fit well with the rest of the team.

I think the Larry Brown Fiasco is a case in point (though Larry is, of course, not a player). Thomas picked the best coach available and ignored the warning signs. We all know what happened next. And I think there was definitely a personality conflict there. Isiah doesn't seem to work well with the coaches under him.

Whether that would extend to point guards as BlueSeats seems to be suggesting, I don't know.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 10-31-2007 12:43]
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bobs3304
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10/31/2007  12:55 PM
I really don't see us makingn the playoffs short of a coaching change.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
RemBee76
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10/31/2007  1:01 PM
BJ, Larry Brown is a good example, though I understand that was a pick pushed for by Dolan more than Isiah.

I'd only point out that there was more happening that led to the LB fiasco than just the fact that Isiah doesn't work well with his coaches. Between LB and Zeke that was a two-way street. Between LB and his players it was a 16 way street.

But I recall reading how during the first pre-season under Lenny Wilkens Isiah would put on his warm-ups and participate in the coaching sessions. That was ridiculous, and foreshadowed Lenny's exit.

Yes, history would suggest that Isiah wants there to be no question of who is in charge. When Anucha Brown-Sanders said "all trades should be reviewed by me" that set the tone for that whole relationship.

But thats fine. At least there can be no question of who to sack if this team does not make the playoffs this year.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Bippity10
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10/31/2007  1:25 PM
I'm personally not even talking about a leader as big as kid. I'm talking about guys that may be on the downside, but have had success and can still contribute as part of the top 5-8. In 3 years those guys have been there, but we went after filling the seats first. Now once again we are asking Marbs and Zach and Eddie to be the leaders of this squad when they themselves have noone to show them how.

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BlueSeats
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10/31/2007  1:29 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Kidd is simply one example of the kind of guy I easily see Isiah threatened by, and therefor undesirous of, in spite of being one of the best at leading on the floor.

And this is the kind of thinking that I am the most perplexed by on this board. People are so obsessed of dissecting Isiah's personality that they dismiss the more obvious explaination out of hand. You really think Isiah wouldn't acquire Kidd if he was available because he would be "threatened"? Sorry if my point was "petty", but yours is just inane.

No, its that crazy Isiah. Forget that the Knicks have made it their MO to acquire vets, many with "spotty" backgrounds, for years. In 1999 we paired an underachieving PF with a questionable work ethic with a player with more character issues than anyone Isiah has acquired, and rode them to an improbable run to the finals. Could it be that "Talent" is the more common denominator to winning than experience?

And maybe one should take note that the young players Isiah has acquired in the draft by and large have been 3 and 4 year guys from good college programs, not just the “dumb athletes” that some are so fond of saying that Isiah is fond of.

Not a petty point, an obvious one. But why let that get in the way of yet another "cult of Isiah's personality" posting.

But if pointing out that Jason Kidd is unavailable is "petty", I'd like to hear some examples of players Isiah would be "threatened" by that are not so.


[Edited by - rembee76 on 10-31-2007 12:42 PM]

Yes, rembee, I really believe Isiah would not want Kidd, just as I really believe he did not want Brown, and I believe he felt threatened enough by Fratello to 180 him for Wilkens, who he believed he could dominate beyond what any self-respecting man would take. This doesn't take a "dissection" of personality, it's available to anyone who's followed the knicks.

I appreciate that Brendan Suhr has pushed for guys with solid college experience, but that's hardly the leadership threat I've referred to. They may represent some glimmer of hope as role players of the future, but they pale in comparison to the present danger of said youth being led astray by a captaincy trio of Marbaby, Crawful, and Chubby.

But rock on, we're athletic, sort of.
RemBee76
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10/31/2007  1:32 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
I appreciate that Brendan Suhr has pushed for guys with solid college experience...

Oh stop, now this is just sad.

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
arkrud
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10/31/2007  1:34 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Kidd is simply one example of the kind of guy I easily see Isiah threatened by, and therefor undesirous of, in spite of being one of the best at leading on the floor.

And this is the kind of thinking that I am the most perplexed by on this board. People are so obsessed of dissecting Isiah's personality that they dismiss the more obvious explaination out of hand. You really think Isiah wouldn't acquire Kidd if he was available because he would be "threatened"? Sorry if my point was "petty", but yours is just inane.

No, its that crazy Isiah. Forget that the Knicks have made it their MO to acquire vets, many with "spotty" backgrounds, for years. In 1999 we paired an underachieving PF with a questionable work ethic with a player with more character issues than anyone Isiah has acquired, and rode them to an improbable run to the finals. Could it be that "Talent" is the more common denominator to winning than experience?

And maybe one should take note that the young players Isiah has acquired in the draft by and large have been 3 and 4 year guys from good college programs, not just the “dumb athletes” that some are so fond of saying that Isiah is fond of.

Not a petty point, an obvious one. But why let that get in the way of yet another "cult of Isiah's personality" posting.

I can see Thomas acquiring Kidd if he was available. In fact, I think it would be in character as he always tries to get the best guy. The problem IMO is that those guys don't usually fit well with the rest of the team.

I think the Larry Brown Fiasco is a case in point (though Larry is, of course, not a player). Thomas picked the best coach available and ignored the warning signs. We all know what happened next. And I think there was definitely a personality conflict there. Isiah doesn't seem to work well with the coaches under him.

Whether that would extend to point guards as BlueSeats seems to be suggesting, I don't know.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 10-31-2007 12:43]

Isiah is typical dictator. He wins and losses alone.
And it is not like to be a dictator is bad to lead professional franchise.
The question is if he CAN figure it all out alone. And so far he doesn’t.
So let him lose alone...



"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
BlueSeats
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10/31/2007  1:40 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by BlueSeats:
I appreciate that Brendan Suhr has pushed for guys with solid college experience...

Oh stop, now this is just sad.

You love to hide larger issues behind nitpicks.

And yes, Suhr is extremely influencial in the draft. That's not to take anything away from Isiah, if you like his picks, for he's the one who put him on staff, but don't think for a second Isiah doesn't allow major pull to Suhr. You may or may not know this, but Suhr was also responsible for drafting Rodman when Isiah was a Piston.

But I'm sure you'll find a figure of speech to take issue with since the larger points appears to be more than you can bear.
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10/31/2007  1:45 PM
When is Bip's steel cage going to be ready?
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RemBee76
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10/31/2007  1:50 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
But I'm sure you'll find a figure of speech to take issue with since the larger points appears to be more than you can bear.

I think I've done all that can be done to rationally answer a "larger point" that posits that Isiah would not acquire Jason Kidd if he were available.

Don't fret. If, by chance, you add something of substance to that larger point I'll be sure to take issue with it.

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Bippity10
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10/31/2007  1:51 PM
Posted by eViL:

When is Bip's steel cage going to be ready?

4 more days, now get off my back. You will get your dam-n cage. Yeeeesh.
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BlueSeats
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10/31/2007  1:54 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by BlueSeats:
But I'm sure you'll find a figure of speech to take issue with since the larger points appears to be more than you can bear.

I think I've done all that can be done to rationally answer a "larger point" that posits that Isiah would not acquire Jason Kidd if he were available.

Don't fret. If, by chance, you add something of substance to that larger point I'll be sure to take issue with it.

I've done a lot more to validate my opinion in the matter than you, considering you have nothing on your side but snarky retorts.
TrueBlue
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10/31/2007  2:02 PM
Actually Jason Kidd has been available during I SAY UGH's tenure here but we've never once tried to pursue him. Lakers and Mavs made attempts to get him. We've had the Starbury, Frazier & Monroe, Crawstressed, and Special back court who's got room for a HOF pg in Kidd? Instead I SAY UGH tried to go after Carter for half a yr who was headed towards another payday once the season ended. Typical I SAY UGH
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