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tkf
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10/13/2007  1:53 PM
Posted by majorleads:
Posted by tkf:

Geez, if I am the lakers, i wouldn't even talk to the bulls, the don't have what I want or need. Deng and gordon are good within that bulls system, good players, but not guys that are going to sell tickets...

I would look at the Terry and Howard deal before I looked at what the bulls had to offer....

Howard is REALLY good, however, you are short changing the Bulls players. Terry could be considered a product of the Mavs system. As for Deng, that guy has great or close to being great ability. But most likely the Bulls will not part with him. Also, the Bulls players have a lot of trade value. If the Lakers were to get a package of Gordon, Nocioni, Noah, Thomas and a first round pick, that is a ton of nice trading chips IF they need to fill in an area of need on their team.

Are Terry and Howard going to sell tickets? Uh no. Other than getting back another superstar, what will eventually sell tickets are an up and coming team on the rise. If the youngins show tremendous potential in year 1, people will be back in year 2. You throw in another lottery pick and this team can get right back in contention for a playoff spot in year 2. And remember they would have a lot of nice trading chips next summer to get another veteran and that is without trading Odom!


Good points major but terry and howard have the mavs past success to sell to the fans. And they are well known to the fans on the west coast, that may be more sellable than two players from the bulls who are not allstars but good team players. I like deng, but right now Josh Howard is damn near a complete player, he can do things at this point deng can't, and jason terry is a good two way player, not just part of the mavs system but he was great in atlanta, the hawks just sucked... Gordon is as one dimensional as it gets and he is looking for a big extension. The mavs can sweeten the deal by throwing in some draft picks, but terry and howard are two very complete players that can win in the west...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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majorleads
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10/13/2007  2:40 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by majorleads:
Posted by tkf:

Geez, if I am the lakers, i wouldn't even talk to the bulls, the don't have what I want or need. Deng and gordon are good within that bulls system, good players, but not guys that are going to sell tickets...

I would look at the Terry and Howard deal before I looked at what the bulls had to offer....

Howard is REALLY good, however, you are short changing the Bulls players. Terry could be considered a product of the Mavs system. As for Deng, that guy has great or close to being great ability. But most likely the Bulls will not part with him. Also, the Bulls players have a lot of trade value. If the Lakers were to get a package of Gordon, Nocioni, Noah, Thomas and a first round pick, that is a ton of nice trading chips IF they need to fill in an area of need on their team.

Are Terry and Howard going to sell tickets? Uh no. Other than getting back another superstar, what will eventually sell tickets are an up and coming team on the rise. If the youngins show tremendous potential in year 1, people will be back in year 2. You throw in another lottery pick and this team can get right back in contention for a playoff spot in year 2. And remember they would have a lot of nice trading chips next summer to get another veteran and that is without trading Odom!


Good points major but terry and howard have the mavs past success to sell to the fans. And they are well known to the fans on the west coast, that may be more sellable than two players from the bulls who are not allstars but good team players. I like deng, but right now Josh Howard is damn near a complete player, he can do things at this point deng can't, and jason terry is a good two way player, not just part of the mavs system but he was great in atlanta, the hawks just sucked... Gordon is as one dimensional as it gets and he is looking for a big extension. The mavs can sweeten the deal by throwing in some draft picks, but terry and howard are two very complete players that can win in the west...

I'm not saying Terry and Howard aren't worthy, what I'm saying is that package of Gordon, Nocioni, Noah, Thomas and a #1 provide the Lakers with much more flexibility to build back their team. Again, you are highly underestimating the talent of those Bulls players.

Deng is most likely off the table but you underestimate him too. Remember now, he's just 22 and has a comparable all around game to Howard. Plus he has those long arms which helps him on the defensive end. Howard is real good, but Deng is well on his way to being REALLY good too.

Terry is also 30 years old and a much better fit on a team ready to compete for a championship. Feeding the ball to Nowitski is much different than getting the ball to Bynum. Yes I know Terry is good defensively, but the Lakers in the package I mentioned above are getting back 4 decent defensive players. Thomas has the potential to be a dominating low post defensive player. You underestimate him.

But my main reason for choosing the Bulls trade over the Mavs is because the Lakers get back more trading chips and are still able to keep the nucleus of their team. It gives them soooo many different ways to improve. They don't have to keep Gordon, they could trade him.

With Howard, Terry and Odom, that is not a winner. By the time their able to get enough pieces, Howard will be 30 and Terry will be close to retirement.

In my scenario, you suck for one more season, pick up another lottery pick, plus the Bulls pick and you trade off any players who you don't feel fit your system. That could include Gordon. Laker fans are already expecting to be mediocre this season with Kobe, so missing the playoffs and getting a much higher draft pick while watching their youngin's get better, is reason for optimism in LA. Other than pairing Kobe with KG, there is nothing more a Laker fan could have expected this season.

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tkf
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10/13/2007  4:00 PM
Posted by majorleads:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by majorleads:
Posted by tkf:

Geez, if I am the lakers, i wouldn't even talk to the bulls, the don't have what I want or need. Deng and gordon are good within that bulls system, good players, but not guys that are going to sell tickets...

I would look at the Terry and Howard deal before I looked at what the bulls had to offer....

Howard is REALLY good, however, you are short changing the Bulls players. Terry could be considered a product of the Mavs system. As for Deng, that guy has great or close to being great ability. But most likely the Bulls will not part with him. Also, the Bulls players have a lot of trade value. If the Lakers were to get a package of Gordon, Nocioni, Noah, Thomas and a first round pick, that is a ton of nice trading chips IF they need to fill in an area of need on their team.

Are Terry and Howard going to sell tickets? Uh no. Other than getting back another superstar, what will eventually sell tickets are an up and coming team on the rise. If the youngins show tremendous potential in year 1, people will be back in year 2. You throw in another lottery pick and this team can get right back in contention for a playoff spot in year 2. And remember they would have a lot of nice trading chips next summer to get another veteran and that is without trading Odom!


Good points major but terry and howard have the mavs past success to sell to the fans. And they are well known to the fans on the west coast, that may be more sellable than two players from the bulls who are not allstars but good team players. I like deng, but right now Josh Howard is damn near a complete player, he can do things at this point deng can't, and jason terry is a good two way player, not just part of the mavs system but he was great in atlanta, the hawks just sucked... Gordon is as one dimensional as it gets and he is looking for a big extension. The mavs can sweeten the deal by throwing in some draft picks, but terry and howard are two very complete players that can win in the west...

I'm not saying Terry and Howard aren't worthy, what I'm saying is that package of Gordon, Nocioni, Noah, Thomas and a #1 provide the Lakers with much more flexibility to build back their team. Again, you are highly underestimating the talent of those Bulls players.

Deng is most likely off the table but you underestimate him too. Remember now, he's just 22 and has a comparable all around game to Howard. Plus he has those long arms which helps him on the defensive end. Howard is real good, but Deng is well on his way to being REALLY good too.

Terry is also 30 years old and a much better fit on a team ready to compete for a championship. Feeding the ball to Nowitski is much different than getting the ball to Bynum. Yes I know Terry is good defensively, but the Lakers in the package I mentioned above are getting back 4 decent defensive players. Thomas has the potential to be a dominating low post defensive player. You underestimate him.

But my main reason for choosing the Bulls trade over the Mavs is because the Lakers get back more trading chips and are still able to keep the nucleus of their team. It gives them soooo many different ways to improve. They don't have to keep Gordon, they could trade him.

With Howard, Terry and Odom, that is not a winner. By the time their able to get enough pieces, Howard will be 30 and Terry will be close to retirement.

In my scenario, you suck for one more season, pick up another lottery pick, plus the Bulls pick and you trade off any players who you don't feel fit your system. That could include Gordon. Laker fans are already expecting to be mediocre this season with Kobe, so missing the playoffs and getting a much higher draft pick while watching their youngin's get better, is reason for optimism in LA. Other than pairing Kobe with KG, there is nothing more a Laker fan could have expected this season.


fair point, but in all honestly, neither of these deals are worth a kobe bryant type player.. Lakers get fleeced either way....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Nalod
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10/13/2007  4:31 PM
The 5 for 1 mentioned is a great one for the Lakes, pair with and bynum its a great rebuild! They can always fine tune with other picks and trade but its a lot of value. Noah had big camby type upside and Thomas could still be a monster. Gordan will need to be resigned and Bulls don't want to do this. Nocioni can always be retraded.

Personally I see lots of value for the lakes and the fans might very well buy into it, as might PhilJax whom might be intrigued by doing the rebuild and put his stamp on it! Its one thing to do it with great parts like Kobe, shaq, Mike and pip, but to incubate might be very appealing!
majorleads
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10/13/2007  4:37 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by majorleads:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by majorleads:
Posted by tkf:

Geez, if I am the lakers, i wouldn't even talk to the bulls, the don't have what I want or need. Deng and gordon are good within that bulls system, good players, but not guys that are going to sell tickets...

I would look at the Terry and Howard deal before I looked at what the bulls had to offer....

Howard is REALLY good, however, you are short changing the Bulls players. Terry could be considered a product of the Mavs system. As for Deng, that guy has great or close to being great ability. But most likely the Bulls will not part with him. Also, the Bulls players have a lot of trade value. If the Lakers were to get a package of Gordon, Nocioni, Noah, Thomas and a first round pick, that is a ton of nice trading chips IF they need to fill in an area of need on their team.

Are Terry and Howard going to sell tickets? Uh no. Other than getting back another superstar, what will eventually sell tickets are an up and coming team on the rise. If the youngins show tremendous potential in year 1, people will be back in year 2. You throw in another lottery pick and this team can get right back in contention for a playoff spot in year 2. And remember they would have a lot of nice trading chips next summer to get another veteran and that is without trading Odom!


Good points major but terry and howard have the mavs past success to sell to the fans. And they are well known to the fans on the west coast, that may be more sellable than two players from the bulls who are not allstars but good team players. I like deng, but right now Josh Howard is damn near a complete player, he can do things at this point deng can't, and jason terry is a good two way player, not just part of the mavs system but he was great in atlanta, the hawks just sucked... Gordon is as one dimensional as it gets and he is looking for a big extension. The mavs can sweeten the deal by throwing in some draft picks, but terry and howard are two very complete players that can win in the west...

I'm not saying Terry and Howard aren't worthy, what I'm saying is that package of Gordon, Nocioni, Noah, Thomas and a #1 provide the Lakers with much more flexibility to build back their team. Again, you are highly underestimating the talent of those Bulls players.

Deng is most likely off the table but you underestimate him too. Remember now, he's just 22 and has a comparable all around game to Howard. Plus he has those long arms which helps him on the defensive end. Howard is real good, but Deng is well on his way to being REALLY good too.

Terry is also 30 years old and a much better fit on a team ready to compete for a championship. Feeding the ball to Nowitski is much different than getting the ball to Bynum. Yes I know Terry is good defensively, but the Lakers in the package I mentioned above are getting back 4 decent defensive players. Thomas has the potential to be a dominating low post defensive player. You underestimate him.

But my main reason for choosing the Bulls trade over the Mavs is because the Lakers get back more trading chips and are still able to keep the nucleus of their team. It gives them soooo many different ways to improve. They don't have to keep Gordon, they could trade him.

With Howard, Terry and Odom, that is not a winner. By the time their able to get enough pieces, Howard will be 30 and Terry will be close to retirement.

In my scenario, you suck for one more season, pick up another lottery pick, plus the Bulls pick and you trade off any players who you don't feel fit your system. That could include Gordon. Laker fans are already expecting to be mediocre this season with Kobe, so missing the playoffs and getting a much higher draft pick while watching their youngin's get better, is reason for optimism in LA. Other than pairing Kobe with KG, there is nothing more a Laker fan could have expected this season.


fair point, but in all honestly, neither of these deals are worth a kobe bryant type player.. Lakers get fleeced either way....

Yeah lets just say they have not handled themselves well since the Shaq debacle. However, the Lakers have been on top for so long and have given their fans TREMENDOUS amounts of enjoyment over the past 25 years, it's time for their fans to pay them back with some patience. If the Bulls trade is available, take it and completely rebuild. Those spoiled Laker fans have no right to complain. Look at us!!!!!!!! Sure beats the Dolan 8th seed or bust plan.
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4949
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10/13/2007  4:38 PM
Posted by playa2:
Posted by 4949:

I gotta admit playa, I'm not use to seeing you on the Knicks forum. I keep expecting to see some kind of conspiracy theory or how society disrespected your shoes.

4949 if you check my post count , I have been around for a while.

I have talked more basketball than you can imagine , I just so happen to be up on current events and not like some who bury their heads in the sports world only.

No matter what I bury my head in, people will always say the opposite. And most of your post count is over in the conspiracy theory section. Just ask anyone. Respectfully yours, 4949.
I'll never trust this' team again.
majorleads
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10/13/2007  4:40 PM
Posted by Nalod:

The 5 for 1 mentioned is a great one for the Lakes, pair with and bynum its a great rebuild! They can always fine tune with other picks and trade but its a lot of value. Noah had big camby type upside and Thomas could still be a monster. Gordan will need to be resigned and Bulls don't want to do this. Nocioni can always be retraded.

Personally I see lots of value for the lakes and the fans might very well buy into it, as might PhilJax whom might be intrigued by doing the rebuild and put his stamp on it! Its one thing to do it with great parts like Kobe, shaq, Mike and pip, but to incubate might be very appealing!

Their fans need to STFU. Spoiled whiny brats is what they've become. If I was a Laker fan and got that package of Bulls players for Kobe, I'd be happy. Suck it up for one season, land in the lottery and then tinker with the roster in the summer. I would LOVE to be the GM of the Lakers next summer with all that roster flexibility.

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4949
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10/13/2007  4:40 PM
Posted by majorleads:
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by majorleads:
Posted by TheGame:

If we offered Curry, Nate, Lee, and Crawford (which is the trade playa2 proposed yesterday) for Kobe and Kwame Brown, I don't see how the Lakers pass on that. They could trade Odom and Bynum for O' Neal and they would have a lineup of Fisher, Crawford, Walton, O' Neal, and Curry, with Nate, Lee, and Turiaf off the bench.

That would leave use Marbury, Kobe, Balkman, Randolph, and start Brown at center, with Collins, Q, and Chandler on the bench.

[Edited by - thegame on 10-13-2007 07:10 AM]


If the Lakers trade Kobe, they certainly aren't going to turn around and trade Bynum and Odom for Oneal. If they trade Kobe, they are blowing up their team and building around young players with lots of upside. Curry, Crawful and Oneal do not fit that mold. They want players like Al Jefferson and also high draft picks. The only team that really fits what their looking for is the Bulls. Deng is the obvious player they would want, but a package of Gordon, Nocioni, Thomas, Noah plus pick(s) is sufficient. Gives the Lakers tons of flexibility to do other things and construct their team the way they want.

Once they get rid of Kobe, I can then see the Lakers trading Odom and Radmanovic to the Heat for JWill, Haslem, filler, plus a #1 pick. That will clear out more salary, get them another #1 plus Haslem who they could keep or trade. This would give the Lakers tremendous cap flexibility over the next few years to go out and sign free agents, build through the draft, make trades because they would have lots of valuable trading chips, and have lots of "youthier" players with lots of upside. Ahhhh that is my dream for the Knicks.

How does Curry and Crawford not fit that mold. They are both under 28 and still have room for improvement. Plus, the Lakers are not a team that is going to go into rebuild mode. They are like the Knicks in that regard. They are always going to want to win now. So if they trade Kobe, they are going to be looking for players who are ready to play now. I agree that they will want to go a little younger, but they are not going blow up their team and start hording draft picks.

Unless the Lakers are getting back a superstar or a bunch of already really good players, just trading Kobe is a HUGE short term setback. That is blowing up your team! Curry and Crawful? Get real dude!! That is a recipe for the lottery. Defense Defense Defense, you don't trade superstar Kobe for 2 players who play zero defense, one is a chucker and the other is a big who doesn't rebound or block shots. For KOBE BRYANT??? THINK!!!!!!!

Gotta agree with this one. Curry & Craw for Kobe? Come on man! Buss's probably laughing at this one right now.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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10/13/2007  4:43 PM
Dude, read the posts before your start spouting off. I never said the trade was Curry and Crawford for Kobe. The trade was Curry, Crawford, Lee, and Nate, and possibly a draft pick for Kobe and Brown.

That's a better scenario.
I'll never trust this' team again.
Papabear
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10/14/2007  12:57 AM
Posted by 4949:

I'd like to take a moment and give you a friendly reminder that the Knicks are something like 1-9 against the bulls since Curry came over. Hardly the next Shaq. He can't even be a factor in beating his old team and he's the one who had something to prove. Phony written all over him. I expect the Knicks to be swept by the bulls again this season. So what your saying is 'how dare you. I wouldn't make a move that would get us to the final four in the playoffs. They don't grow big stupid dorks on trees you know.'

Papabear Says

Kobe is a great player but history tells us that it takes more than just a great player to bring home the ring. It takes Chemestry. If Kobe goes into Chicago he will be bringing his baggage with him. That is him. He has an attitude problem and when he leaves Los Angeles he will be bringing it to Chicago.
The Lakers have pride and they won't send him to a great playoff team. But wait a minute. Any team whe gets him will be giving up a lot.

Papabear

Papabear
TMS
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10/14/2007  10:09 AM
Posted by 4949:

I like Steven A. Smith. He'll tell' you if the Knicks suck.

Steven A is the biggest bandwagoner on sports talk radio.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Ira
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10/14/2007  10:34 AM
Even with Kobe, the Lakers don't have enough to go all the way. So what's the point in keeping him - maybe making the playoffs and winning a round? Trade him - get the most value for him you can and rebuild with what you get + Bynum. Then trade Odom for whatever you get.
Bonn1997
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10/14/2007  11:11 AM
Posted by Ira:

Even with Kobe, the Lakers don't have enough to go all the way. So what's the point in keeping him - maybe making the playoffs and winning a round? Trade him - get the most value for him you can and rebuild with what you get + Bynum. Then trade Odom for whatever you get.

I agree. I think after they trade Kobe, Odom would have a statistically impressive season. Then you trade Odom. They need to do a full rebuild.
Bobby
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10/14/2007  3:31 PM
some kind of chris bosh deal might open a few eyes
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
TMS
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10/14/2007  4:16 PM
Kobe's not agreeing to go to TOR.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
djsunyc
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10/14/2007  4:21 PM
Posted by TMS:

Kobe's not agreeing to go to TOR.

it's gonna be tough turning down an opportunity to play...with this guy.........
djsunyc
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10/14/2007  4:24 PM
gordon + ty thomas + noah + nocioni for kobe (tough to find a better deal for young talent talent, lack of long term contracts, and desired location)

kirk, kobe, deng, smith, ben wallace - that could be enough to win it.
misterearl
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10/14/2007  4:27 PM
Allan Houston said, "If you want to play fantasy basketball, anybody would love to have Kobe Bryant on their team. But that's not reality."
once a knick always a knick
TMS
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10/14/2007  4:30 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TMS:

Kobe's not agreeing to go to TOR.

it's gonna be tough turning down an opportunity to play...with this guy.........


kobe & bargnani ain't winning jack together w/o a low post scoring presence & defensive supporting cast... & even if they could, TOR is not the type of market Kobe will be looking to go to... no matter what the papers say, i'm convinced that Chicago & NY are the only realistic options, & CHI will be stripped so bare w/any trade, it won't be worth Kobe's time to go there... NY has a much bigger shot of obtaining Kobe than people seem to realize IMHO... the only drawback being the fact that the Knicks are owned by a moron like Dolan who's running a clown circus instead of an NBA franchise... not exactly a great way to rebuild one's reputation & fanbase to come into a situation like this.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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10/14/2007  4:33 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

gordon + ty thomas + noah + nocioni for kobe (tough to find a better deal for young talent talent, lack of long term contracts, and desired location)

kirk, kobe, deng, smith, ben wallace - that could be enough to win it.

LA already insisted they wanted Deng included in the trade & CHI refused according to the papers.

IMO, the Knicks can offer a better package if it doesn't involve Deng.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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