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Do You Think It's Offensive for A Black Woman To Call Another Black Woman A Bitch??
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4949
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10/4/2007  12:38 AM
Posted by eViL:

HAHAHA!!! At the game, how funny would a "Dolan's a bitch... CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!" chant be?

[Edited by - eViL on 10-03-2007 8:54 PM]

I love it!
I'll never trust this' team again.
AUTOADVERT
Killa4luv
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10/4/2007  12:40 AM
Posted by Nalod:


Lets go to the ultimate: when two black men call other the N-word?

A Double Standard Worth Keeping:

Race and the Differential Power of the "N-Word"

By Tim Wise

Published as a ZNet Commentary, 5/25/05
About half of African Americans, when polled, say the word or it's derivative (the one that ends with "a" instead of "er") should never be used, and the other half argues that it can be used among blacks in certain contexts, as an endearment, or a subtle but unhateful dis, or as a way to "reclaim" the term and arguably strip it of its power to injure.

But whether or not some in the black community continue to use the term, there is no reason why whites should audibilize it, ever. That Biddle (and probably most whites) would call this a double standard is irrelevant. Fact is, history has been a double standard too, and it is this history that explains why the n-word is so much more offensive when coming from a white mouth than the mouth of an African American. That most whites don't know much about the history of racism hardly pardons us: it has been a willed ignorance, after all, and as such can hardly be used as an excuse for the phony claims of equivalence forwarded by Biddle, or any number of white high school students I discuss the subject with each year.

Simply put, the historic use of the n-word in the white community is not one of mixed meaning. It is not a history in which we called our black friends or colleagues such a term, as if it meant little more than "hey there dude, let's go grab a burger and fries at the Mickey D's." In the mouths and hearts of whites, that word has only been used in the context of contempt, of presumed white superiority, of anti-black bigotry.

As such, for any white person to use it today is to force the black person hearing it to immediately wonder what's behind the comment, what the speaker's intent really is, in a way they don't have to sweat as readily when spoken by another black person. History creates a natural and internalized warning bell for any black person hearing a white person use the word, which, if triggered enough can create psychological scars far deeper than most whites could ever fully comprehend.

But to understand the fundamental difference between the white and black use of the word, beyond its historical legacy, consider a similar example.

I am from the South, and frankly, have never much appreciated the word "redneck," which is so often used against white Southerners, largely because I know it as a slur against working class whites, especially rural folks, whose labor in the sun would cause their necks to become "red." Though I admit to having used it before, often in fact, I have resolved not to do so in the future because of its derogatory implications, and because, frankly, many in my family, going back generations, would qualify for the designation.

But having said that, I must also note that when Jeff Foxworthy tells twenty minutes of redneck jokes (as in, his "You might be a redneck if..." routine), I have a hard time taking offense. I don't find the bit particularly funny, as it's not my comedic cup of tea. But I don't get pissed. And why? Simple: Jeff Foxworthy is in the family, so to speak. He too is a white Southerner; someone who could be viewed as a redneck; and as such, I can pretty safely assume he isn't hating on his people or himself. Self-deprecating humor, while it can sometimes straddle the line with self-hatred, generally has a different feel than when someone outside the fold tells the same jokes.

In other words, if Jerry Seinfeld starts telling redneck jokes, we're gonna have a problem.

It's the same thing with Jewish jokes. I'm Jewish, as is my father's father's side of our family. For generations, Jewish comics have made a living telling jokes about our community. In fact, as a kid, I remember coming across several books of Jewish jokes in my dad's old room, all of them written by other Jews. And while I didn't think them very funny (after all, there's nothing amusing about playing upon stereotypes with such quips as, "Why do Jews have long noses? Because air is free."), nonetheless, I could assume this humor was emanating from a less toxic place than had it been published in a Klan pamphlet or church bulletin.

It's sort of like the old playground wisdom that I can talk about my momma, but you had damn well better not do the same. Double standard? Sure. But so what?

That many whites won't be able to understand this simple point is testimony to nothing so much as our own sense of entitlement. In other words, we are not used to anyone telling us that we can't do something, or shouldn't, and as such take great offense when our own freedom, including the freedom to offend, is constrained.

What else can explain the white hysteria over so-called political correctness, which, after all, was really never anything but the desire for folks not to be racist pricks, and to inculcate a norm of civility and respect for persons different from oneself?

I can think of no other reason than the desire to maintain a certain form of white privilege: the privilege of saying whatever we want, whenever we want, and feeling as though our right to lecture others on their behavior should logically take precedence over controlling our own.



In other words, the same privilege that (as the flipside to racism itself), has historically given the n-word its power to injure in the first place. As with all racism, it is power and position that gives a racial slur its ability to injure. This is why slurs against whites like cracker or honky seem more juvenile than truly offensive. And this is why the n-word, spoken by whites, is so fundamentally less acceptable than the same term spoken by blacks, however potentially problematic the latter may be.
4949
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10/4/2007  12:41 AM
Posted by Nalod:


Lets go to the ultimate: when two black men call other the N-word?

I think this case has finally come to an end. Enough already.
I'll never trust this' team again.
misterearl
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10/4/2007  7:28 AM
killa4luv - as always

well done my killa

I hope that answers the Naold question so we can get back to bitching about the Knicks
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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10/4/2007  7:30 AM
Deep Thoughts

Hold up, if all one does is bitch about the Knicks...

does that make him a bitch?
once a knick always a knick
bitty41
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10/4/2007  8:11 AM
Bitty says

Papabear needs to get off his soap box and stop bitching. If you don't understand that its not okay to refer to other human beings in the work place or in public by derogatory terms than you need to just stay in your cave.

Bitty

Killa article nowithstanding the n-word should be stricken from EVERYONE'S vocabulary.
misterearl
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10/4/2007  8:17 AM
It's not TV, it's HBO

bitty - Papabear never said it was okay to use the bitch word

He simply cited references of its widespread use in the media. I have watched MTV, BET, TBS and must agree.

once a knick always a knick
bitty41
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10/4/2007  8:35 AM
Okay and whats the point I hear all kind of bad language being used on television and thats just on the regular cable stations not even Cinemax, HBO, etc. My only point is that whether he hears it on television radio or wherever; that still does not change the fact that the term should not be used in a non-private environment.
holfresh
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10/4/2007  8:37 AM
I'm gonna bitch slap someone if this team ain't good this year...Zeke better pucker-up if the Garden ain't rocking this year...
playa2
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10/4/2007  8:41 AM
shouldn't this be in off-topic?

JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
misterearl
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10/4/2007  8:42 AM
bitty41 - the point being popular culture is changing the way we endorse language and give it legitimacy

whether in a private or public setting

I'm gunna bitch slap Jared Jeffries if he doesn't get after Carmelo like he stole something
once a knick always a knick
BlueSeats
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10/4/2007  10:02 AM
I see a lot of people being murdered on TV. I think I'll try it too.
BasketballJones
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10/4/2007  11:02 AM
What's the age of the target audience for MTV?
https:// It's not so hard.
Killa4luv
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10/4/2007  11:54 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:

I see a lot of people being murdered on TV. I think I'll try it too.

Well Blue, thats actually the argument that Imus and manu of his supporters made. "Rappers say ho all the time" as if a) he listens to rap and b) Rappers have become some kind of role model by which older rich white uys set their standards.

You are correct, it is a ridiculous argument, both ways.


And I think some women earn title word b*tch. I have used the word bitch many times in my life, but directed at a woman, only twice, and both times they deserved it and I'd do it again. I think this convo goes too far sometimes, you cant call a woman a bitch ever? Sometimes a woman is behaving in a way that justifies her being called a bitch. Same way you call some guys d*ckheads or a*sholes But thats just my opinion.

btw you never responded to my response on the orlando patterson article.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 10-04-2007 11:55 AM]
BlueSeats
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10/4/2007  12:46 PM

btw you never responded to my response on the orlando patterson article.

I know, I apologize for that. Sadly, I've only given it a cursory glance so far. I saw it when the news of the harassment verdict came out and was swept up in those events. I will give it a good read, but I may let is stand as an interesting exchange between yourself and mister Patterson. We'll see.
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BlueSeats:

I see a lot of people being murdered on TV. I think I'll try it too.

Well Blue, thats actually the argument that Imus and manu of his supporters made. "Rappers say ho all the time" as if a) he listens to rap and b) Rappers have become some kind of role model by which older rich white uys set their standards.

You are correct, it is a ridiculous argument, both ways.

Well if I recall correctly, during our original Imus discussion I was of the mind that the strong minded will know how to internalize such things without emulation but the weak wont - like kids who are desperate to form an identity and fit in, or those willing to sell there souls for dollars and ratings. We already know kids of both races emulate rappers (much more than they do Don Imus, btw) so I do think there is something to fear there.

Over time the commonality of usage does become something of a groundswell that exceeds the point of no return. The use of naughty words are much more prevalent in entertainment today than they were when I was growing up. Is that good or bad? It can be both. Few things in life are without two sides or double edges. Often it depends on if the usage is made to look cool, glamorous, fun and hip... and quite often they are. In such contexts they become very seductive.

If people want words like Ho, Bitch, N*gga, N*gger, etc, to be used in the mainstream than there is no better way to advocate that than to popularize their usage in pop culture like TV, music, and film.

And I think some women earn title word b*tch. I have used the word bitch many times in my life, but directed at a woman, only twice, and both times they deserved it and I'd do it again. I think this convo goes too far sometimes, you cant call a woman a bitch ever? Sometimes a woman is behaving in a way that justifies her being called a bitch. Same way you call some guys d*ckheads or a*sholes But thats just my opinion.

It's like racism - it's a problem of scale, time and place. Nobody should care what we do in the privacy of our bedrooms, but when we take these things into more public arenas they can become very troublesome indeed, especially at the institutional level.
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10/4/2007  10:50 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

people can be as crass as they want at home and social settings but in the corporate environment normal business protocol should be the rule. Otherwise you get white people using the terms toward blacks saying, "well she said it" (similar to the Imus situation, IMO), or visitors and clients may be exposed to the language and take offense (if not decide it's too much of an animal house to do business with, and all forms of propriety may break down and you have a mess on your hands.

But at home, at the gym, the salon, etc, I suppose you can say as much as you want until you get your azz handed to you.

Papabear Says

Blueseats you are very troubling, with your sarcastic words and comments. Ass hole maybe you don't understand but racism starts in the home, and it manifest in the beauty salons and barber shops. For some reason I think that you already knew that. You ain't stupid, but if anyone truly reads between your lines they can see that you are a racist. I'm calling you out on it again.. So it's OK for whites or others to use the word nigga bitch and any other racial slur just as long as you are at home. Thats what you said.

Papabear

Papabear

Papabear
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10/4/2007  10:55 PM
Posted by misterearl:

MUS: "The world is a ghetto"

papabear - bump dat. Check out The MTV dating show Next and watch both White and Black teenage girls refer to each other as bitch on a regular basis. And that is on basic cable tv.

supwidat?

[Edited by - misterearl on 10-03-2007 9:29 PM]

Papabear Says

Sad real sad. Mister Earl I have I respect for you on this forum. But I can't believe that some of these guys are Knick fans.

Papabear

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10/4/2007  11:05 PM
Posted by bitty41:

Bitty says

Papabear needs to get off his soap box and stop bitching. If you don't understand that its not okay to refer to other human beings in the work place or in public by derogatory terms than you need to just stay in your cave.

Bitty

Killa article nowithstanding the n-word should be stricken from EVERYONE'S vocabulary.

Papabear Says

Ittty Bitty pretty one, come on and dance with me, Lovely dovy lovey one come on and dance with me.
Hey Bitty that was an old song that the black artist never got paid but thats the horse of another color. Your comments are Itty bitty.

Papabear

Papabear
BlueSeats
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10/4/2007  11:09 PM
Posted by Papabear:
Posted by BlueSeats:

people can be as crass as they want at home and social settings but in the corporate environment normal business protocol should be the rule. Otherwise you get white people using the terms toward blacks saying, "well she said it" (similar to the Imus situation, IMO), or visitors and clients may be exposed to the language and take offense (if not decide it's too much of an animal house to do business with, and all forms of propriety may break down and you have a mess on your hands.

But at home, at the gym, the salon, etc, I suppose you can say as much as you want until you get your azz handed to you.

Papabear Says

Blueseats you are very troubling, with your sarcastic words and comments. Ass hole maybe you don't understand but racism starts in the home, and it manifest in the beauty salons and barber shops. For some reason I think that you already knew that. You ain't stupid, but if anyone truly reads between your lines they can see that you are a racist. I'm calling you out on it again.. So it's OK for whites or others to use the word nigga bitch and any other racial slur just as long as you are at home. Thats what you said.

Papabear

Papabear


Papabear, I don't consider you to be the easiest guy to understand either, if not as little daft. For instance this is your thread and I still don't know if YOU think it's okay for women to call each other bitches.

I think tried to make my position in this thread a lot more clear than you have, and I think you spend too much time trying to read between my lines rather than understanding what's written. You still think anyone who doesn't support "Zeke and Marbs" are racist, so of course you think I am. So be it, I'm not unhappy to disappoint you. You may even think you're still talking to TrueBlue for all I know.
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10/4/2007  11:11 PM
papabear been hitting the sauce while waiting for the porridge to cool?
Do You Think It's Offensive for A Black Woman To Call Another Black Woman A Bitch??

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