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OT true hatred for middle eastern people propping up
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Silverfuel
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9/25/2007  6:01 AM
Posted by firefly:

Was it right to go into Iraq and Afganistan. Of course it was! Saddam was killing his own people!
Oh come on! You know that is not why we went into Iraq. It had nothing to do with crimes against humanity. There are other great humanitarian crisis that need attention. We did not (and do not) give a flying fuk about what Saddam was doing to his own people. Please do not use "Saddam was killing his own people" as a reason to justify what we did in Iraq.

nykshaknbake: toodarkmark comes up with an awesome post and you immediately dismiss it as anti-American because it does not fit your agenda? I know you wanted to make it obvious with your sarcasm but at least try and think about what he is saying. Like many others in this country, he is sick of the greedy neocon's running this country.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 09-25-2007 06:09 AM]
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firefly
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9/25/2007  6:46 AM
I did not mean to call the Iranian people terrorists as a group. If it looks like I did, I apologize. I meant the leaders of the country are educating their people in idealogical fundamentalism. Where we teach maths and science, they promote holocaust denial. Where we teach english and social studies, they promote dying for your cause.

Silver, I cannot say that the West did not have an ulterior motive for invading Iraq. I'm sure the oil was a factor in their thinking. But the oil is also the reason why Iraq was much more dangerous then other war-torn areas ie Darfur, Kashmir etc. Iraq in the hands of a genocidal, fundamentalist leader is far more dangerous then Darfur in the hands of the same. So yes, regardless of the oil, and the underlying political realities, we invaded for a good reason. And what you say about there being other areas of conflict is true too. Two wrongs don't make a right. We aren't doing enough in places like Darfur, and we did too much in Iraq. There is a balance that we have not yet found. But thank god we're trying. In my opinion, better to have tried and failed then to have never tried at all.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
dodger78
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9/25/2007  6:59 AM
Firefly: I just wanted to illustrate how problematic it is to condemn the people of a nation for the wrongs done by a minority (you see in Iran the fundamentalists are a minority!!!) that are in power!!!
Silverfuel
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9/25/2007  7:54 AM
What you said basically sounds like what Bush had been saying for 4 years until he was proved wrong.
Posted by firefly:

Silver, I cannot say that the West did not have an ulterior motive for invading Iraq. I'm sure the oil was a factor in their thinking. But the oil is also the reason why Iraq was much more dangerous then other war-torn areas ie Darfur, Kashmir etc. Iraq in the hands of a genocidal, fundamentalist leader is far more dangerous then Darfur in the hands of the same.
Let me address the security part of your post first. IMO, this is completely inaccurate. Places like Darfur, Afghanistan and Pakistan are a HUGE problem to our security and its because they can be easily exploited. Think about it. Did we ever have a problem with Iraq like we have with Pakistan and Afghanistan? Saddam was so closely watched he couldn't buy a bottle of Tylenol without us knowing. I can post link after link about how Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al-Qaeda. CIA agents, ex-CIA chief's, Bush's himself before he started with his BS propaganda and oh yea, the fact that fundamental muslims hated him with a passion. Why do we allow the Saudi Royal family to finance Madaras in Pakistan? Why is it ok that the crown prince of Saudi Arabia is an ally when he friends clear up land routes for weapons to go to Palestine? No man, Iraq was attacked because they were selling their oil to the Chinese and not the Americans. If we cared about terrorism or sponsoring terrorism as much as your are saying, our hitlist would be 1) Bin Laden/Al-Qaeda, 2) Saudi Arabia and 3) Pakistan
So yes, regardless of the oil, and the underlying political realities, we invaded for a good reason. And what you say about there being other areas of conflict is true too. Two wrongs don't make a right. We aren't doing enough in places like Darfur, and we did too much in Iraq. There is a balance that we have not yet found. But thank god we're trying. In my opinion, better to have tried and failed then to have never tried at all.
No we did not invade for a good reason. Yea OK, we got rid of Saddam (for securing the gas station) but look at whats left of the country? Civil war, burned children, mother forced to prostitute to feed their kids? The necon's never allowed their government to form because we were too busy building pipelines and paying Halliburton. Instead of letting the Iraqi's execute him, we held a sham trial of Saddam where multiple prosecutors and a judge lost their lives. We allowed private companies like Blackwater and AEGIS to operate at will killing people for sport and firing at crowds unprovoked. No firefly, the reasons were not noble and the people have already seen through that! No one, not even the strongest supporters of the Bush administration want the occupation to continue. Everybody in the world knows it was for oil, not for rescuing people that live in a potentially dangerous country or however you put it.

I commend you on trying to justify the actions of greedy politicians but all we see is a bunch of dead soldiers and civilians and unhappy Iraqi's. I dont know if you really believe it when you said "thank god we are trying" but come on, if we were trying to help the Iraqi's wouldn't they know it? I said what I wanted to and I don't think I will convince you otherwise so I'm done going down this road again.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Silverfuel
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9/25/2007  8:01 AM
Posted by dodger78:

But you obviously have NO idea of the Iranian people, so dont judge them or go there and get a first hand impression! You might even be suprised, that you are not stoned out right by police forces!!!
I can agree with this. Ahmadinejad is a complete douchebag but the Iranian people are not terrorists. They were one of the few countries in the middle east that mourned Sept 11.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
kam77
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9/25/2007  8:34 PM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

Yeah, it's really America's fault. You can't blame the terrorists. All other cultures blow things up when they don't get their way. If you give people what they want they will leave you alone generally. It works for Isreal. It worked for all of Europe in WWII.
Posted by kam77:

The leaders and lawmakers here in the USA need to remember WHY we are being targeted by the terror groups.

It aint that deep.

Spin wins again.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
kam77
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9/25/2007  8:36 PM
Posted by COSSUCKS:
Posted by kam77:

The leaders and lawmakers here in the USA need to remember WHY we are being targeted by the terror groups.

It aint that deep.

Sort of like the women in some of these terror based countries need to remember why they are stoned to death if they dont obey a man?

Or how women lose their jobs and passports if they dare to drive a car?

Or how their families are murdered if a woman runs away with man not choosen to be her husband?

Yeah terrorists are real fair rational thinkers.

Just the other day a Bin ladin tape reportedly told everyone to become Muslim or die. Nice that he is so rational that he gives us a fair choice.

What do your statements mean? Are the rights of women so important (and do you really believe thats why we're there) that its worth killing women and children for?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
kam77
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9/25/2007  8:38 PM
Posted by COSSUCKS:

Ask Gay people about how they are treated in these terror based countries. Oh yeah you cant because they are killed if they admit they are gay

How are GAY people treated in THIS country? Geez.... How about we clean up our own backyard and apologize for installing dictatorships in order to nationalize the oil industry in IRAN?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
kam77
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9/25/2007  8:42 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by firefly:

Was it right to go into Iraq and Afganistan. Of course it was! Saddam was killing his own people!
Oh come on! You know that is not why we went into Iraq. It had nothing to do with crimes against humanity. There are other great humanitarian crisis that need attention. We did not (and do not) give a flying fuk about what Saddam was doing to his own people. Please do not use "Saddam was killing his own people" as a reason to justify what we did in Iraq.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 09-25-2007 06:09 AM]

Yup. We go into countries and fix things up.(/sarcasm)

Let me ask all those who feel likesome on this thread do... why are we not going into all the nasty islamic countries in africa?

They are just as bad to women, children, gays etc.... In fact there are some african cultures who ritually mutilate women.

Why aren't we going after those bastards?


Hmmm.....

OIL, MONEY, RACE
Wouldn't play well on TV attacking some backwards black nations would it?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
BRIGGS
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9/26/2007  2:06 PM
Posted by toodarkmark:

Talk about bigotry. You sound like a southern white man. \\\" I dont know if we can trust our white women around these blacks.\\\" Thats basically what youre saying.

Theres so much hatred from the Iranian president because he was elected as a hateful president. Think about it. We invaded the country to the west, that we destroyed over 10 years with sanctions, all to take their oil supply. Theres NO ONE with a rational mind who thinks otherwise. We invaded the country to the right which was housing the \\\"mastermind\\\" of 9-11. Yet we didnt catch him, all we did was take over and build some oil pipelines. How do you think the people of Iran would react other than voting in a hateful guy. Imagine Iran invaded Canada and Mexico, how would WE feel?

And as far as terrorism goes, there is a problem with islamic fundamentalism and its sweeping the world. But that LAST thing that will save us from it is becoming more Dystopian and Totalitarian. That has never done ANYTHING good in any country. The problem isnt just blowing over, because this is an ancient conflict and the greedy Conservative will NEVER give up the oppurtunity to war and rob another greedy Conservative.

And you mention them running into a mall and blowing up women and kids? Have you ever seen the pictures of Iraq? When we invaded? Talk about dead women and children. You dont ruin countries, kill peoples families and expect NOTHING to happen.



Not at all. I am very disconcerted at the real power of the President of the United States over this country. I understand what GWB is trying to do--but their *cowboy mentality* wasn\\\'t an effective or efficient way to hit at the root cause. Right now *it is to late* for sorry\\\'s--I just hope and pray that a Democratic President is elected and that GWB is out of office before any escalation of violence.
It\\\'s not bigotry to say we need to do what we can at this time to decrease the possibilities of a MASSIVE--COHESIVE attack against what could be tens-of thousands of women and children. The traffic between Middle-east countries and the US has to be cut down significantly and instead of people being on terror lists--they need to be asked to move from the US peacefully where the US picks up the full financial bill and acts with dignity. Short term visas need to be abolished for the near term. The day 500 middle eastern persons walk into malls and blow themselves up simultaneously all across the US France England and potentially kill your kids or mine--well your bigotry statement can be flushed. We need to get the fck out of Iraq and mind our own backyard right now. I condemn what the US has done--and so do MOST Americans but there is jack we can do about it other than voting in a Democrat IMHO. But at the end of the day I care about OUR kids first and our kids are NOT safe right now--we need to calm OUR jets--diminish potential short term threats whether people like it or not--think it is racist or not etc... and create dialogue that promotes peace and stability. If that doesn\'t work--he less threat our backyard has--the better for now.

Why does the US Government care less about confronting Africa----because Africa does not pose a threat to the civilized world. They have too many of their own problems as is. It\\\'s a savage land ruled by people who have no thought for a lawful society and there is jack we can do about it.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 09-26-2007 2:10 PM]
RIP Crushalot😞
playa2
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9/26/2007  6:12 PM
SAY WHAT! we are no more safe than we were 6 yrs ago on 9/11.

If you notice we haven't has suicide individuals walk into a mall or some other public place and blow it up. That's what happens in Israel and Other countries , why hasn't it happend here.


IMHO we are no more safe than we were 6 yrs agon on 9/11

The terrorist that we claim orchestrated 9/11 are from our own soil and Israel.

Propaganda at it's finest perputrated by bush and company.

Now when this next alleged terrorist attack occurs on our soil, watch what happens to our freedoms. This is a ploy that was practiced by Soviets yrs ago.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
COSSUCKS
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9/27/2007  2:15 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by COSSUCKS:

Ask Gay people about how they are treated in these terror based countries. Oh yeah you cant because they are killed if they admit they are gay

How are GAY people treated in THIS country? Geez.... How about we clean up our own backyard and apologize for installing dictatorships in order to nationalize the oil industry in IRAN?

Are you kidding me? You equate how gay people are treated in this country (parades, tv shows, marriages in several states) to being put to death in Iran if you admit you are gay?
kam77
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9/27/2007  4:06 PM
This country just recently became ever so slightly 'gay-friendly' Iran aint the only country, and Islam aint the only religion that denounces gays. since Iran is run by an Islamic government, you're going to have more severe religious rules. The ultra-conservatives in the USA are probably in agreement with the Iranian government on this issue.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Silverfuel
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9/27/2007  5:05 PM
Posted by kam77:

The ultra-conservatives in the USA are probably in agreement with the Iranian government on this issue.
Much worse. Bill O'Reilly is on record saying he wants terrorists to attack San Francisco and destroy the city because of its large gay population.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100008
And if Al Qaeda comes in here and blows you up, we're not going to do anything about it. We're going to say, look, every other place in America is off limits to you, except San Francisco. You want to blow up the Coit Tower? Go ahead.
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COSSUCKS
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9/27/2007  10:18 PM
You guys are funny. Our goverment doesnt kill people because they are gay. Irans chief terrorist wont even admit gay people exist in Iran.

By the way Media Matters looks like a nice name for what in reality is a really biased propaganda site. Did that quote mention gay people? Maybe he was talking that area because thats where the John Lindh Walkers are bread.
Silverfuel
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9/28/2007  7:38 AM
Posted by COSSUCKS:

You guys are funny. Our goverment doesnt kill people because they are gay. Irans chief terrorist wont even admit gay people exist in Iran.
Just because we don't kill them does not mean we treat them well. Just because we are not as radical as them does not makes us right.
By the way Media Matters looks like a nice name for what in reality is a really biased propaganda site.
What, you mean like fox news? What media outlet is not biased? I get my info from a variety of sources and they can all backup that quote. media matters was just the first website that came up in my google search.
Did that quote mention gay people? Maybe he was talking that area because thats where the John Lindh Walkers are bread.
The quote was in that context. I cannot find the context right now so I will concede this point to you until I have a little more time. For the record, John Walker Lindh was a complete douchebag traitor **** that did not deserve a trial.

Whatever, let me say this for the greater good of our discussion COSSUCKS; we are becoming what our enemies want us to become. Fearful, quick to judge and intimidated by authority. We have stopped questioning people in authority because we think they have our best interests in mind. The best way to have fought the war would have been shock and awe and leave. We would have left a vacuum but there is no way it would have been messier than it is right now. We are making Iraq a huge problem for the future by staying and pissing off all the neighboring countries that hate us for staying. I don't think we should care that they hate us but it would be stupid to attack them because they hate us.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 09-28-2007 07:40 AM]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
kam77
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9/28/2007  3:53 PM
Our government doesn't kill people beause they're gay. No, we just deny you the right to live your life like anyone else, but we don't kill you.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
kam77
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9/28/2007  4:27 PM
From another poster in another forum:

Just a note around Ahmajinidad's homosexual comments.

Guys, gals, how far along the path are we that we can turn around and make fun of one not yet on the path?

How many of us were surprised to hear that Rock Hudson was gay? And he died of AIDS (meaning he came out long after the whole gay nation was founded). The closet door hasn't been off it's hinges all that long around here. It creeked open after woman's liberation and civil rights had already come busting on through the cultural landscape.

They're not that very far behind us, because we really haven't even come all that far ourselves.

Am I right or wrong?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
COSSUCKS
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9/28/2007  5:37 PM
Sorry thats very wrong. Gays like many minorities may have some hurdles here but they are also have parades TV shows, freedom of speech, and human rights etc. we have gays in all sorts of positions of power including in our congress.
You are talking about a countries (Iran) goverment killing them for being gay. How can that even compare to how gays live here in the USA. Go ask 1000 gays in Iran where they feel they have more rights. The USA or Iran. Oh wait they wont even admit to being gay because they know their own country will murder them for it.
4949
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10/1/2007  9:11 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

I know there have been various discussions on racism in these forums--mainly black/white issues. And while there will be differences and incidents that will plague us from time to time. IMHO from my own personal experiences--I have never seen radical hate for African Americans--in fact I view white and black Americans as the backbone of the country. I know when all is said and done white and black people have each others back as American citizens who see their kids grow up in our country. Is everything perfect--no--is everything perfect in any family no but I feel it will continue to get better and better. I also believe that Spanish and Mexican Americans will also come to the fore-front and it is happening quickly. The problem that I see in America is something I watched on TV today--well at least some snippets of what happened. the president of Iran spoke here today and you can just see the pure hatred in the air from Americans and even his own mouth. I don\\\'t know if I can honestly trust Middle eastern people anymore--and there are a LOT of great people from those countries--but it\\\'s impossible to dictate who is what. I know Americans black white Spanish Asian etc.. except for extreme cases aren\\\'t going to run into a high school with a bomb and blow themselves up with some of OUR kids in it. they wont run into a mall filled with kids women and children and blow it up. But I fear that this CAN happen from someone who does not fear to do it--who has mind to ideology only. I think the answer will have to start with discontinuing short term visas and rooting out people from these countries who are on terrorist watch lists. It\\\'s better to be safe than sorry and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I think a way out of this is to be on the safe side until things blow over[hopefully not literally]

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 09-24-2007 3:41 PM]

Welcome to Vietnam.

The only difference is, these middle eastern countries are not being forced by Communist China to be divided, like what happened in Vietnam itself. These are highly religiuos people and they will actually die in the name of that. Tell ya what. If there was never any middle eastern oil under the sand, non of this would have ever happened. Instead, something totally different would have happened. The human condition tries and tries and probably will never win as one. At least not in our lifetimes.
I'll never trust this' team again.
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