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Proving RGM Has Good Posters: "ZBO'S USAGE RATE"
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Bonn1997
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9/3/2007  2:22 PM
We all know winning is not simply the result of who your teammates are. How well your team's best player plays and *leads* is also very important (Zach and Marbury) on their teams. You can't ignore a player's teammates but you can't just dismiss patterns of losing and being a poor leader as due to the 11 other players.
AUTOADVERT
nixluva
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9/3/2007  2:23 PM
Posted by arkrud:

Knicks have a lot of players with a lot to prove.
Some failed this task before. Some young and never get a chance yet.
I would say only 2 of the whole team are proven players - Malik and Lee.
And we know what they can do. One can only influence the locker room and another just starting.

Do I believe that all of them will suddenly turn it around? Not really.
But 2-3 guys may be.
Will see soon...

That's just wrong. We have more than just 2 proven players on this team. Still it's a team with a good deal of younger developing players, so it's not hard to imagine that we would need to allow time for them to develop. This is a talented young team that is IMO ripe for having a good season. Last year we at least established a base to build from and now we should start to reap more results from the talent we've been adding the last 3 offseasons.
COSSUCKS
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9/3/2007  5:11 PM
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by EnySpree:

So there IS a stat that can prove zach is a beast. Cool.
This post doesn't say what "usage" is but I'm guessing it has something to do with frequency of shot attempts, which in itself is neither a good nor a bad quality.


Usg Usage Rate is the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes.

Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)


Basically the entire offense ran through Zach last year. Switch him with Curry, and I don't see that happening.

Randolph is a better passer (underrated), a great offensive rebounder, has a solid jumpshot, and is arguably every bit as dominant in the post as Curry (youtube him).

He lit Gasol up for 43 and 17 last year.


[Edited by - bobs3304 on 09-01-2007 9:53 PM]

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 09-01-2007 9:58 PM]

Having a 30 plus usage rate doesnt make him a good or bad player. 30 plus touchs per 40 minutes for a non guard is extremly high. People said Curry was force fed the ball last season and his usage rate was only a 23 so than Zach was force fed the ball all that and add another 30% touchs on top. It seems you dont understand what usage rate indicates. In reality it took Zach 7.1 more touchs a game to score 4 points more a game than Curry did.

Saying Zach's 46% Field goal % is just under 50% is like saying Crawfords 40% is just under 45%. 46% for a post player is nothing to brag about. Curry(58%) was closer to 60% than Zach was to 50% and saying Zach is as dominant inside is ridiculous. You dont evaluate players threw youtube highlights. Zach had like 12 dunks all year. Curry has some games where he has 7 dunks. There is no way Zach is as dominant inside as Curry. Zach is better outside and Zach is a better slasher, but inside as a dominant post scorer? Not a chance. Thats why Curry led the NBA in points in the paint by with over 1000 points inside more than the #2 guy (Duncan)

[Edited by - COSSUCKS on 09-03-2007 5:16 PM]
nixluva
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9/3/2007  5:55 PM
You have to remember too that like Curry teams knew he was their top threat and that will change when he's on a team with other tough covers. We should see his stats come into a more efficient state on this team. With a bit less attention he should be able to score more in fewer touches.

No matter how you look at it, the guy will be an asset to this team and since he doesn't do all of his work from in the deep post, that should allow him to fit in well with Curry being a predominantly low post player. Forget about it if Curry and Lee actually come in with an improved jumper. That would make things REALLY tough for teams to deal with. It would add one more dimension to things for them to worry about.
Ira
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9/3/2007  8:07 PM
Portland did much better with him in the lineup than when he was off the court. His Roland Rating was +8.1 which was the best among players with significant minutes on his team and in the top 20 in the league.

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607POR.HTM
misterearl
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9/3/2007  8:09 PM
c'mon

"I would say only 2 of the whole team are proven players - Malik and Lee."

arkrud - that doesn't even make a bit of sense. Lee, as much as we love him uncontionally, hasn't "proven" a thing.

So all of a sudden, Curry's 20 and 7 and Zach's 23 and 10 are meaningless?

c'mon arkrud... I understand you feel like you have a valid point but to label Lee "proven" and Curry and Zach as "unproven" is nothing more than some good old-fashioned arbitrary segregation. Marbury may be "unproven" in your myopic rear view mirror. but the man has skills that are "proven" enough to be voted on an all star team. What, that don't count?

besides

It's a TEAM game and the Knicks will "prove" to be a better team in 2007-08.

Enough with separating personal favorites just to make some ridiculous point. Oh yeah, hold up.... I almost forgot...

Vote Wilson Chandler for Mayor
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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9/3/2007  8:09 PM
Pedro Martinez rocks

[Edited by - misterearl on 09-03-2007 8:18 PM]
once a knick always a knick
nixluva
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9/3/2007  8:37 PM
Posted by Ira:

Portland did much better with him in the lineup than when he was off the court. His Roland Rating was +8.1 which was the best among players with significant minutes on his team and in the top 20 in the league.

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607POR.HTM
Someone will come up with some reason why this doesn't mean anything or that it shows he's just the best player on a bad team. I don't know what it is that makes knick fans so ready to diss their own guys. We just got a guy that's a genuine Stud and all people can think of is why did he come so cheap? Why isn't he perfect like Tim Duncan or KG? As if there are a bunch of those guys just hanging around to be picked up. The guy is a 20/10 player and one of only 5 in the league and we're supposed to believe he's not gonna help us, cuz he destined to be a loser?

We already know that we have some really good role players. Lee, Q, Balkman, Nate & Mardy in particular. Now we've got another guy that can dominate and you have to think that it's gonna make a big difference. Now when Jamal or Steph chips in with a big performance it's gonna put us over the top. I expect consistent input from Curry, Zach and Lee and then it's up to the other guys to fill in the gaps.
arkrud
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9/3/2007  9:22 PM
Posted by misterearl:

c'mon

"I would say only 2 of the whole team are proven players - Malik and Lee."

arkrud - that doesn't even make a bit of sense. Lee, as much as we love him uncontionally, hasn't "proven" a thing.

So all of a sudden, Curry's 20 and 7 and Zach's 23 and 10 are meaningless?

c'mon arkrud... I understand you feel like you have a valid point but to label Lee "proven" and Curry and Zach as "unproven" is nothing more than some good old-fashioned arbitrary segregation. Marbury may be "unproven" in your myopic rear view mirror. but the man has skills that are "proven" enough to be voted on an all star team. What, that don't count?

besides

It's a TEAM game and the Knicks will "prove" to be a better team in 2007-08.

Enough with separating personal favorites just to make some ridiculous point. Oh yeah, hold up.... I almost forgot...

Vote Wilson Chandler for Mayor

It is not only my opinion but common knowledge around the league.
Malik is a great guy but he is done as a player.
Lee is young but he is recognized for what he did and how he presents himself.
It is not an accident that he invited to Olympics camp and almost all teams want to include him in any trade proposal with Knicks.
The only thing that Curry proves - he can score a lot in the paint. So what?
Can he lead his team to winning season? To playoff? Same for all other "stars" on the Knicks roster. When they will win they will get it. For now - no respect.







"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Bonn1997
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9/3/2007  9:32 PM
So all of a sudden, Curry's 20 and 7 and Zach's 23 and 10 are meaningless?
No, the 7 rbs in 35 mpg are not meaningless. It's actually quite a liability for a center.
nixluva
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9/3/2007  9:39 PM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by misterearl:

c'mon

"I would say only 2 of the whole team are proven players - Malik and Lee."

arkrud - that doesn't even make a bit of sense. Lee, as much as we love him uncontionally, hasn't "proven" a thing.

So all of a sudden, Curry's 20 and 7 and Zach's 23 and 10 are meaningless?

c'mon arkrud... I understand you feel like you have a valid point but to label Lee "proven" and Curry and Zach as "unproven" is nothing more than some good old-fashioned arbitrary segregation. Marbury may be "unproven" in your myopic rear view mirror. but the man has skills that are "proven" enough to be voted on an all star team. What, that don't count?

besides

It's a TEAM game and the Knicks will "prove" to be a better team in 2007-08.

Enough with separating personal favorites just to make some ridiculous point. Oh yeah, hold up.... I almost forgot...

Vote Wilson Chandler for Mayor

It is not only my opinion but common knowledge around the league.
Malik is a great guy but he is done as a player.
Lee is young but he is recognized for what he did and how he presents himself.
It is not an accident that he invited to Olympics camp and almost all teams want to include him in any trade proposal with Knicks.
The only thing that Curry proves - he can score a lot in the paint. So what?
Can he lead his team to winning season? To playoff? Same for all other "stars" on the Knicks roster. When they will win they will get it. For now - no respect.
Curry happens to be truly remarkable at scoring inside. When his passing and the teams shooting is fully able to take advantage of that you'll see how big of a deal that is. When teams are made to pay for trying to double and triple him you'll see the wins come. You have to remember, last year was Curry's 1st time being used as the focal point of a teams offense on every possession. In particular on a team that didn't have enough perimeter shooting to keep defenses honest. He didn't always handle it well, but he wasn't a flop either. He's got to make up for lost time, but I think he's gonna get the hang of it. The more he plays in this system the more he'll get used to the attention and how to handle it. He won't panic as much and he'll learn how to react properly. In addition we'll need to work in better perimeter shooting to help him, Zach and Lee succeed.
arkrud
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9/3/2007  10:29 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by misterearl:

c'mon

"I would say only 2 of the whole team are proven players - Malik and Lee."

arkrud - that doesn't even make a bit of sense. Lee, as much as we love him uncontionally, hasn't "proven" a thing.

So all of a sudden, Curry's 20 and 7 and Zach's 23 and 10 are meaningless?

c'mon arkrud... I understand you feel like you have a valid point but to label Lee "proven" and Curry and Zach as "unproven" is nothing more than some good old-fashioned arbitrary segregation. Marbury may be "unproven" in your myopic rear view mirror. but the man has skills that are "proven" enough to be voted on an all star team. What, that don't count?

besides

It's a TEAM game and the Knicks will "prove" to be a better team in 2007-08.

Enough with separating personal favorites just to make some ridiculous point. Oh yeah, hold up.... I almost forgot...

Vote Wilson Chandler for Mayor

It is not only my opinion but common knowledge around the league.
Malik is a great guy but he is done as a player.
Lee is young but he is recognized for what he did and how he presents himself.
It is not an accident that he invited to Olympics camp and almost all teams want to include him in any trade proposal with Knicks.
The only thing that Curry proves - he can score a lot in the paint. So what?
Can he lead his team to winning season? To playoff? Same for all other "stars" on the Knicks roster. When they will win they will get it. For now - no respect.
Curry happens to be truly remarkable at scoring inside. When his passing and the teams shooting is fully able to take advantage of that you'll see how big of a deal that is. When teams are made to pay for trying to double and triple him you'll see the wins come. You have to remember, last year was Curry's 1st time being used as the focal point of a teams offense on every possession. In particular on a team that didn't have enough perimeter shooting to keep defenses honest. He didn't always handle it well, but he wasn't a flop either. He's got to make up for lost time, but I think he's gonna get the hang of it. The more he plays in this system the more he'll get used to the attention and how to handle it. He won't panic as much and he'll learn how to react properly. In addition we'll need to work in better perimeter shooting to help him, Zach and Lee succeed.

Nix - you points are valid and both Eddy and Zack are really good offensive players.
Lee is good rebounder and has good potential.
But this will be wasted again if Eddy and Zack will fail to play defense and stay in team concept. Same true if Lee will not be given enough playing time at 4 and if he fail to develop some kind of jumper and improve his defensive game.
Nothing is given for this team. They have long way to go and it will be hard...
I am not in the business of expectations this year. Enough disappointments.






"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
bobs3304
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9/3/2007  11:07 PM
Arguing about this team is pointless.


They suck.


True winners do whatever it takes to win. Jordan was a total *******, but atleast he always hustled back on D.


I don't think I've ever seen Steph dive for a loose ball, same goes for Zach. Hell Zach can barely move; he's like the Tinman.


This team is doomed from the get-go. Too many stat-padding loser whores.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
nixluva
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9/3/2007  11:19 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

Arguing about this team is pointless.


They suck.


True winners do whatever it takes to win. Jordan was a total *******, but atleast he always hustled back on D.


I don't think I've ever seen Steph dive for a loose ball, same goes for Zach. Hell Zach can barely move; he's like the Tinman.


This team is doomed from the get-go. Too many stat-padding loser whores.
I suppose you just completely forgot about Balkman, Lee, Q and Mardy who all hustle? You're constant ripping of the team is hard to understand. Steph plays hurt all the time and I don't agree that he doesn't give max effort. He was one of our best defenders last year on top of taking the lead. Zach may not be able to jump, but he can move well enough to burn most teams everynight. Just to for once acknowledge that this team has a serious talent and that we have a shot to be right in the mix this year isn't that hard to do.
bobs3304
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9/3/2007  11:24 PM
^ Dude..........


Ahh sigh, wtf is the point.


You homeroids don't get it.


WE............SUCK.


Do ya understand?


Stop talking about role players. That's a pathetic excuse for an arguement.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Ira
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9/3/2007  11:34 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
So all of a sudden, Curry's 20 and 7 and Zach's 23 and 10 are meaningless?
No, the 7 rbs in 35 mpg are not meaningless. It's actually quite a liability for a center.

7 boards in 35 minutes is weak, but rebounding was not a team problem. We were one of the top teams in the league in rebounding. And it gets better when you replace Frye with Zach. Rebounding won't be a concern even if Curry doesn't improve.
Papabear
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9/4/2007  1:44 AM
Papabear says

bobs3304 are you really a Knicks fan?? Wow!! The Knicks don't suck. They will be better this year than last year.
Now David Lee is my man but just imagin this!!! Lets make Lee the main go to guy. He gets the play first. You know and I know that he can't live up to that expectation. Lee will always be a supporting cast, and thats not bad. He will never be the main man on a team but what he does on the floor is great. Now Curry, Zach,Crawford and Marbs are key go to players. You may not like it but that's the way it is. Everyone knows Lee is a great supporting cast. He will never be the go to guy so get over it.He may be an allstar one year. I love Lee's game.

Papabear
Papabear
bobs3304
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9/4/2007  3:09 AM
PapaSmurf:


THE KNICKS................SUCK.


They will not make the postseason, we will not respresent the All-Star team, and we will not play ANY defense whatsoever.

DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Bonn1997
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9/4/2007  3:20 AM
Posted by Ira:
Posted by Bonn1997:
So all of a sudden, Curry's 20 and 7 and Zach's 23 and 10 are meaningless?
No, the 7 rbs in 35 mpg are not meaningless. It's actually quite a liability for a center.

7 boards in 35 minutes is weak, but rebounding was not a team problem. We were one of the top teams in the league in rebounding. And it gets better when you replace Frye with Zach. Rebounding won't be a concern even if Curry doesn't improve.
Earle was actually trying to pass it off as a strength of Eddy! (Why else ask about his 20 and 7?)
VDesai
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9/4/2007  9:48 AM
This isn't new- do you guys read the Knickerblogger:

http://www.knickerblogger.net/2007/06/29/can-curry-and-randolph-coexist/
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