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The Better PG- Clyde or Zeke
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Travla
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9/1/2007  6:23 PM
I saw Clyde play and I have to give him the edge. Clyde was more of a combo guard, bigger, stronger and I believe a bit smarter basketball-wise. I would love to have seem them go up against each other. Both were what they're teams needed at the time.
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Nalod
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9/1/2007  7:37 PM
Posted by Marv:

both all-time greats. I think u could mke a case for either, it all depends on your personal preferences. mine are for clyde. isiah was the more entertaining to watch, because of the package of small size with indominatable will, aggressivenes and creativity. plus I liked his bitchy walk-off-the-court bad boy style. the only thing I didn't like about him was his affection for bobby knight.

clyde, though, imo did everything on the court that isiah did, but just with a different pace and body language. and his size and defense were tremendous advantages. I think he could have played 3 positions and flourished equally at them.

in terms of teams, yeah reed, debusschere, bradley,barnett, monroe are more legendary names, but i'd say no more effective a unit than dumars, rodman, laimbeer, aguirre, vinnie. plus they had all the big men they kept rotating, salley, mahorn, edwards.

one last thing, whoever was saying cousy couldn't play now I 100% disagree. he would be exactly what you see in steve nash. talk about never pick up your dribble, know where everyone on the court is, pick out the right man at the right time, etc.
Nalod
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9/1/2007  7:45 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Marv:

both all-time greats. I think u could mke a case for either, it all depends on your personal preferences. mine are for clyde. isiah was the more entertaining to watch, because of the package of small size with indominatable will, aggressivenes and creativity. plus I liked his bitchy walk-off-the-court bad boy style. the only thing I didn't like about him was his affection for bobby knight.

clyde, though, imo did everything on the court that isiah did, but just with a different pace and body language. and his size and defense were tremendous advantages. I think he could have played 3 positions and flourished equally at them.

in terms of teams, yeah reed, debusschere, bradley,barnett, monroe are more legendary names, but i'd say no more effective a unit than dumars, rodman, laimbeer, aguirre, vinnie. plus they had all the big men they kept rotating, salley, mahorn, edwards.

one last thing, whoever was saying cousy couldn't play now I 100% disagree. he would be exactly what you see in steve nash. talk about never pick up your dribble, know where everyone on the court is, pick out the right man at the right time, etc.

pardon my language today.

Clyde would have made isiah his bitch. Isiah would have been trying to be a clyde wannabe with his sweet threads but Clyde just would have intimidated him. Kinda weird Isiah is president of the knicks and clyde is just now a kinda of goofy color man, but Clyde would have used his jedi mind tricks in the court and snatched the ball with them long paws he had and just crushed Isiah at crunch time. Clyde would have just stared Lil Isiah down and challanged him. Y'all talk about Oak being a bitch but Clyde could not stop Isiah everytime and Debussure would have helped out on weak side and Dave would have Phuched him up. Detroit would then get all hyper bad boy and fall apart and the Knicks would just move the ball around and pull away by 15 before Isiah would be blowing kisses to his boy Magic. Earl would go globe trotter on Dumars and the game would be over.

Only dudes that could kill Clyde was Jerry West and the Big O.

Phuch Isiah the b!itch piston.

Nalod howling at the moon tonite.
4949
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9/1/2007  9:13 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

Bad boys vs. Glory day knicks.

WAR!!!

Those teams would destroy this eras teams. Damn man, the modern NBA is so puss. There are some good players and good teams, but any great ones? Few and far between.

The San Antonio Spurs???

These have basically been the dynasties (or close to), since I been following:
Knicks - early 70's
L.A. Lakers - 1980's
Boston Celtics - 1980's
The Detroit Pistons - 1990's
The bulls - 1990's
The L.A. Lakers - late 90's & early 2000's
The San Antonio Spurs - 2000's

The two exceptions were the Philadelphia 76ers (1980's) if not for the Lakers & Celtics.
And the Knicks (1990's) if not for the Pistons & bulls.
The Pacers put up a good fight also.

Your right though. There really is not much competition right now. Dallas and Phoenix turned out to be busts!

I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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9/1/2007  9:18 PM
Posted by JesseDark:

They just have different styles so its hard to compare. A better comparison of scoring little men would be Zeke compared to Tiny Archibald.

The rules have altered extremely. Before you could kick someones ass, now if you even breath on them, it's a foul! Players where a little dirtier too. I suppose I should appreciate Bruce Bowen a little more.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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9/1/2007  9:20 PM
Posted by Travla:

I saw Clyde play and I have to give him the edge. Clyde was more of a combo guard, bigger, stronger and I believe a bit smarter basketball-wise. I would love to have seem them go up against each other. Both were what they're teams needed at the time.

Size wise, I'd have to agree. Just one thing though. For a little man, Isiah could shoot the bomb right over any' player and hit the clutch. I'd take Clyde over Isiah though.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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9/1/2007  9:24 PM
Clyde would have just stared Lil Isiah down and challanged him.

Attitude wasn't in back then. It was just hard nosed basketball and not' like this punk ass talk of today. I think jordan started the trash talking (along with charles barkley).
I'll never trust this' team again.
tapseer
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9/1/2007  10:35 PM
If you look at career stats...Isiah crushes Clyde. Over 9k assists to go with 19k+ points...Isiah 12 time All Star whose career was cut short due to a foot injury. I'm 40, I've seen little of Clyde, but alot of IT. I even tried to pattern my game after his. IT is the truth. I could watch IT highlights all day, compared to being bored to death watching Clyde.

P.S. Isiah would have been NOBODY'S BITCH...IT and & Laimbeer were the foundation of Bad Boys and IT still punched Laimbeer in the face. LOL. But really, nobody intimidated IT on or off the court.

[Edited by - tapseer on 09-01-2007 10:40 PM]
Cookdcokehop
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9/2/2007  4:38 AM
Posted by tapseer:

If you look at career stats...Isiah crushes Clyde. Over 9k assists to go with 19k+ points...Isiah 12 time All Star whose career was cut short due to a foot injury. I'm 40, I've seen little of Clyde, but alot of IT. I even tried to pattern my game after his. IT is the truth. I could watch IT highlights all day, compared to being bored to death watching Clyde.

P.S. Isiah would have been NOBODY'S BITCH...IT and & Laimbeer were the foundation of Bad Boys and IT still punched Laimbeer in the face. LOL. But really, nobody intimidated IT on or off the court.

[Edited by - tapseer on 09-01-2007 10:40 PM]

I second that. I don't think Fraz had the quickness to keep up with Zeke.
VDesai
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9/4/2007  12:57 PM
This is an interesting argument- I've only caught Clyde on old school footage so its hard for me to gauge. Statswise its difficult too because of 2 different contexts. Clyde was also averaging 6 or 7 rebounds a night and his assist numbers were depressed because he played in Holzman's system which was all about ball movement and didn't really allow one player to dominate the assist numbers. They didn't track steals for early on in his career, but Clyde was a defensive anchor. Zeke was good on D, but I think he was helped a lot by his teammates in that regard as well (who were all NBA defense caliber players- especially Rodman and Dumars). I think they were different tempo players and depending on the type of system you put them in you would take one over the other.

Now personally, I think the best PG in NBA history may have been John Stockton. He's the complete definition of everything you want in the PG...completely unselfish, never made any mistakes, took only high percentage shots (and made a very high percentage), constantly set up teammates and won ball games. You know John Stockton played 19 years and NEVER MISSED THE PLAYOFFS! He also played 82 games 17 out of those 19 years!

This is a player who for his career almost had a 4 to 1 Assist/Turnover ratio, shot .515 from the field, 83% from the line and 38% from 3. His peak years were sick- surpassing what Nash has done over his MVP years by a substantial margin! He was getting 17 and 14 all while shooting well over 50% from the field.

People will say he played with Malone, but who else did those guys play with? They were winning 50 games year with only 2 stars and the rest of the guys mainly role players. Once they got Hornacek they were able to make a couple finals- but how many role players looked like really good players in this system? Anderson? Russell? Thurl Bailey? etc.
Ira
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9/4/2007  1:36 PM
Stockton was great, but IMO, the best point guard I've ever seen was Oscar Robertson. He averaged a triple double one season and was great defensively. I've never seen anyone else who personified the expression, "complete player" nearly as much as he did.
VDesai
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9/4/2007  1:49 PM
I've only seen clips of Robertson, but he must've been unbelievable. He could've averaged a triple double for 2 more seasons (I think a couple times he had 9.5 rebs or 9.9 rebs). That's completely unthinkable. He also shot the ball at a great clip.

That must've been a crazy team to watch- Oscar Robertson getting near triple doubles and Jerry Lucas hanging 20 and 20 every night. And they were still having losing seasons!
VDesai
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9/4/2007  1:51 PM
Question- I've read that it was "tougher" to get an assist back in the 60's and the earlier seasons of the NBA. It's always been somewhat of a subjective stat...were guys getting less credit back then?
Ira
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9/4/2007  5:53 PM
I don't know about how much tougher it was to get an assist back then. The Royals teams of the mid 60's were stuck behind the great Celtics teams as well as the 76er teams with Chamberlain, Cunningham, Greer etc. They had some winning and some losing seasons. But I agree. They should have done better than they did. I don't know why they didn't.
tapseer
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9/4/2007  7:32 PM
Isiah didn't always play with Dumars and Rodman. Before alot of the other guys came along, IT was holding down that Detroit team by himself. I think IT was in the league a good 5 or 6 yrs before Rodman and Salley. One of my earliest memories of IT was when he and Bernard King were going at it. I'm glad the Knicks won the game, but IT left a very lasting impression on me. I mean, I read the posts here talking about how clyde was restricted by the system he played in, but the numbers are what they are. I don't ever remember anyone shutting IT down, and i find it hard to believe that Clyde would be the man too do it. . To each, their own, but for my money Isiah is the man.
Nalod
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9/5/2007  9:45 AM

Best Isiah moment was his sprained ankle game. Very heroic.

Second was when the little Sh!t inbounded the ball and "Bird stole the ball, Bird stole the ball" and he passed to DJ and snatched the game away from Isiah who clearly folded. Pistons had the game won in Boston and gave it, and the series away.

Clyde did not such folding.

Holzmans system was not focused on one player but multiple passes. I know stats are important but im telling you those who never saw the games that Clyde was the man. Willis was the heart and sole of the team and got perhaps one too many MVPs, but clyde was the general and set the pace.

Look at the line for game seven in the 1970 series. Willis did the dramatic but Clyde had like 28 pts, a then playoff record of 19 assits and I think like 10 rebounds. He carried the team in the big moment. Willis gets the clips, and Im not discounting this, but without clydes commanding performance Willis never would have been the remembered as he did.

Isiah might have been a better player over all, but Clyde was the phuching sh!t and young Knick fans should really understand what he has accomplished.

The 1990's team had nothing over that early 70's squad.

Clyde and those men were and are the reason I reamin a fan. Believe me, John Starks whom is beloved by many could not muster enough character to have even ridden the pine of those teams. Only Ewing and Oak could be considered real knicks.
Marv
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9/6/2007  11:03 PM
Posted by Ira:

Stockton was great, but IMO, the best point guard I've ever seen was Oscar Robertson. He averaged a triple double one season and was great defensively. I've never seen anyone else who personified the expression, "complete player" nearly as much as he did.

preach old man

I agree oscar was the best pg ever. magic was #2.

in fact I have oscar tied for the best player ever with russell and jordan.
Marv
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9/6/2007  11:18 PM
Posted by Ira:

I don't know about how much tougher it was to get an assist back then. The Royals teams of the mid 60's were stuck behind the great Celtics teams as well as the 76er teams with Chamberlain, Cunningham, Greer etc. They had some winning and some losing seasons. But I agree. They should have done better than they did. I don't know why they didn't.

cunningham + greer = 2 of the most underrated players ever.

I grew up going to the old boston garden where they would regularly have doubleheaders for peanuts. 4 teams in 1 day, stocked with the greatest players ever from the 60's and early 70's.

the greatest play I ever witnessed live took place between billy c and greer. Billy was out beyond the 3 point area dribbling. Suddenly without looking he whips the ball at the backboard as hard as he can. Greer appears from nowhere, floats up at just the right moment, somehow catches that thing and lays it in.
djsunyc
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9/6/2007  11:25 PM
they played basketball in the 1860's? wasn't there a war or something going on then?
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