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Marbury O.K. With Vick's Dog Fighting
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Andrew
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8/21/2007  4:10 PM
If people are already reacting to this undistorted point of view, then obviously there is something to it that cannot be excused by a claim of the 'NY Media' distortion.
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Andrew
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8/21/2007  4:13 PM
http://www.news10now.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=117076
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RemBee76
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8/21/2007  4:20 PM
Posted by Andrew:

If people are already reacting to this undistorted point of view, then obviously there is something to it that cannot be excused by a claim of the 'NY Media' distortion.

I'm not "excusing" anything now, don't distort what I am saying.

I'm questioning whether Marbury should be considered "stupid" for holding an opinion, saying the only "stupid" thing he did was answer the question in the first place.





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Masterplan
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8/21/2007  4:23 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Andrew:

If people are already reacting to this undistorted point of view, then obviously there is something to it that cannot be excused by a claim of the 'NY Media' distortion.

I'm not "excusing" anything now, don't distort what I am saying.

I'm questioning whether Marbury should be considered "stupid" for holding an opinion, saying the only "stupid" thing he did was answer the question in the first place.

there are definitely such things as stupid opinions.
Andrew
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8/21/2007  4:23 PM
Ok. Do you think his actual opinion is well thought out?
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nixluva
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8/21/2007  4:23 PM
Posted by TheGame:

In a way he is right. People go and shoot deer and other animals for no reason at all (don't say they eat them because there are plenty of people who kill more animals than they eat). No one really bothers them.

That being said, I still have a problem with the Vick allegations because not only did he kill and fight dogs, which I personally think is stupid, but he also killed dogs in the most inhumane ways possible. This guy could have at least went and purchased some injectable drugs that would have killed the dogs humanely. Instead, he pretty much tortures the dogs to death.

I don't like the idea of hunting in particular Bow hunting. The animals often don't die immediately, they run until they bleedout. I'm sure somewhere in America there are animals in some lab being basically tortured for research. Who's to say that Bull Riding isn't abusive or Horse Racing, which is a pretty deep business in terms of what they do to make those animals faster. Certain types of dog and cat breeds are so severe that the animals suffer from physical problems and this is actually a type of abuse. The Beef and Poultry industry has had many issues in regard to animal treatment. Heck we have Boxing and MMA for humans which is pretty darned close to dog and **** fighting.

In another vein Alcohol is legal and yet Marijauna is not, but you see more deaths due to Drunk driving than you do from almost any other form of recreational drug. The NRA makes sure that unnecessary guns are kept in the hands of people who have no real need for such weapons. In this country we choose what is legal or not based on some moral code that is hard to pin down as to where it comes from and why. I don't agree with what Vick was involved in, but at the same time I can see the inconsistency in this country when it comes to many things.

Then you have the cultural differences in the world. In many parts of the world, Bull Fighting is a major attraction. In many countries Cock fightiing is fully legal and i'm sure there are a bunch of other such abuses. Vick should've known better and in many ways so should the people in this country when it comes to things that they know aren't right and yet don't do much to stop it.
Masterplan
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8/21/2007  4:32 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TheGame:

In a way he is right. People go and shoot deer and other animals for no reason at all (don't say they eat them because there are plenty of people who kill more animals than they eat). No one really bothers them.

That being said, I still have a problem with the Vick allegations because not only did he kill and fight dogs, which I personally think is stupid, but he also killed dogs in the most inhumane ways possible. This guy could have at least went and purchased some injectable drugs that would have killed the dogs humanely. Instead, he pretty much tortures the dogs to death.

I don't like the idea of hunting in particular Bow hunting. The animals often don't die immediately, they run until they bleedout. I'm sure somewhere in America there are animals in some lab being basically tortured for research. Who's to say that Bull Riding isn't abusive or Horse Racing, which is a pretty deep business in terms of what they do to make those animals faster. Certain types of dog and cat breeds are so severe that the animals suffer from physical problems and this is actually a type of abuse. The Beef and Poultry industry has had many issues in regard to animal treatment.

hey humans do a lot of crappy stuff to animals. just because there may not be laws about a particular kind of animal torture doesn't make any other form any less inhumane. and it's still illegal, the law's on the books, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
Heck we have Boxing and MMA for humans which is pretty darned close to dog and **** fighting.

**** that. humans can tap out of matches. they can even quit and get another job. they aren't cruelly killed for losing or falling short in training.
Bippity10
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8/21/2007  4:43 PM
First of all, whether it is a dog or a cat or a gorilla or a chicken or a mouse, anyone that can do what he did to the dogs after they lose is one sick individual and I have no problem with the world judging him on this.

As for the rest of it. Whether anyone agrees with the law or not is not the issue. What is the issue, is that it was a law and he broke it. Thus the jail time. Noone dragged him into this. He is a multi-millionaire with influence upon millions of young minority children. This money could have been used to help in the schools, given to homeless shelters or providing assistance for adults trying to better their lives. Instead it was used in dog fighting and illegal gambling. Awesome!!! What a guy!!! If you are going to blow your money at least make it legal.

As for Marbs. Marbs can hold any opinion he wants and people can respond to his opinion anyway they want. I will respond by saying what I always say, Marbs if you want to be loved please just "shut up and do your job"
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RemBee76
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8/21/2007  4:45 PM
Posted by Andrew:

Ok. Do you think his actual opinion is well thought out?

Better question is, is it outrageous to say " From what I hear dogfighting is a sport” when ESPN has an entire section of its web-site dedicated to hunting. I don’t agree that those two are equivalent, but do I think someone is dumb for drawing the parallel? No.

There are plenty of commentators on this situation, particularly in Atlanta, that feel the charges have been trumped up because Vick is a high profile black man. Again, I don’t agree that this is the case. But do I think those people are dumb for holding that opinion? No.
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Allanfan20
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8/21/2007  4:46 PM
Bip, telling Marbury to shut up and do your job is like telling Derek Jeter to stop doing his job and do less shutting up. hahahahaha, Marbury is the anti Jeter.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bippity10
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8/21/2007  4:48 PM
I believe the term you are looking for is "bizarro Jeter"
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nixluva
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8/21/2007  5:01 PM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TheGame:

In a way he is right. People go and shoot deer and other animals for no reason at all (don't say they eat them because there are plenty of people who kill more animals than they eat). No one really bothers them.

That being said, I still have a problem with the Vick allegations because not only did he kill and fight dogs, which I personally think is stupid, but he also killed dogs in the most inhumane ways possible. This guy could have at least went and purchased some injectable drugs that would have killed the dogs humanely. Instead, he pretty much tortures the dogs to death.

I don't like the idea of hunting in particular Bow hunting. The animals often don't die immediately, they run until they bleedout. I'm sure somewhere in America there are animals in some lab being basically tortured for research. Who's to say that Bull Riding isn't abusive or Horse Racing, which is a pretty deep business in terms of what they do to make those animals faster. Certain types of dog and cat breeds are so severe that the animals suffer from physical problems and this is actually a type of abuse. The Beef and Poultry industry has had many issues in regard to animal treatment.

hey humans do a lot of crappy stuff to animals. just because there may not be laws about a particular kind of animal torture doesn't make any other form any less inhumane. and it's still illegal, the law's on the books, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
Heck we have Boxing and MMA for humans which is pretty darned close to dog and **** fighting.

**** that. humans can tap out of matches. they can even quit and get another job. they aren't cruelly killed for losing or falling short in training.
My point is that if we are gonna take a stance that something is barbaric then be freaking consistent. We chose Dog fighting and Kock fighting in this country and then left out a whole lot of other stuff because of the MONEY behind it or the cultural vein in this country finding it OK. Why just VIck? Go after all the animal offenders, in every field. They know exactly where they are cuz they abuse in plain sight. They won't cuz those aren't the ones we've deemed as bad enough to make illegal. VIck probably isn't even the biggest guy doing this, but he was probably the dumbest in terms of not concealing it well. The Fed's just wanted a high profile case to send a message. Once again i'm not saying I feel what Vick did was OK or that any animal abuse is OK, which i'm clearly against. I'm only speaking about the conscience of Americans and moral equivalency.
Bippity10
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8/21/2007  5:11 PM
Nix: I don't understand why pot is illegal and yet alcohol is legal. In my view there is no reason that pot is not legal. That being said, you don't see me going out and having doobie parties at my house and then electrocuting the one's that don't get people high enough

It doesn't matter what you think of a law. In a country where rule of law exists you must follow the ones that are on the books. If you don't like a law lobby to get it changed. If you don't like the fact that hunting is legal(something I despise) than lobby to get it changed.

Vick knows that gambling and dog fighting is illegal and it doesn't matter how anyone feels about the law. A law is a law. He is not being railroaded(actually I guess we will have to see the sentence before we declare this) but he is being treated like any criminal should. If Mike wants dog fighting to be legal than use your money and power to change the law or do it somewhere where it is legal.

Oh and for the record I could never shoot an animal and don't understand people that can. I actually am not short on opinions when I find a friend that does. That being said it is legal. And there is a big difference between thinning out populations that may explode and change the environment, and taking a dog/deer/monkey/chicken/bull/rat/snake/hippo/rhino and stringing it to a tree and hanging it. It takes a sick individual to do that. I dont' care what other laws are on the books. IF you do this, there is something wrong with you.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 21-08-2007 5:11 PM]
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kam77
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8/21/2007  5:12 PM
I think Marbury's point was: Shooting deer is a so-called sport. A sport where men with guns from a comfortable distance snipe away at animals who have no clue they are even in danger and cannot defend themselves. It doesn't sound that much rosier than Dog-fighting. In either 'sport', at the end of the day the animal is dead and would have preferred not to be.

Of course, he should shut up but he has a right to speak his mind and we have a right to call him out for it.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Killa4luv
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8/21/2007  5:14 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:

I would assume he's o.k. with the hangings and drownings of such animals too.

Someone needs to educate Marbury on the Law and the difference between domestic and non-domestic animals. Perfect example of his stupidity showing here.
Many athletes have spoken out about the Michael Vick situation. The latest is Knicks Star Guard, Stephon Marbury.

Speaking at a shoe release event outside Albany, Marbury said, "We don't say anything about people that shoot deer or shoot other animals. From what I hear dogfighting is a sport. It's just behind closed doors. And I think it's tough that we build Michael Vick up and then we break him down. I think he's one of the superb athletes and I think he's a good human being. I just think he fell into a bad situation."


He's right about the media though.
Educating someone on the difference of domestic vs non-dmostic animals is really a trivial, if cultural definition. In this country, dogs and cats are treated better than any other animal, and that is primarily because they are 'domesticated' people own them play with them and love them. This puts people like yourself (and many in the larger society) in the position of making a major distintion between the killing of dogs vs. an animal like a deer; when a major distinction really does not exist. Killing an animal is killing an animal. People who hunt deer, can eat the deer or not, it is irrelevan; they are hunting for sport, and do not depend on deer meat for their survival.

Steph's position is actually quite logical. If killing a deer is ok, why not a dog? What is so much worse about killing a dog? Nothing.

The chinese position, for example, on animals as food is a more logical position as well. The chinese say, we eat animals for food. That means, cows, pigs, dogs, cats, snakes, and many other animals. The Indian positon is that cows are sacred, they are to be treated as one's mother, a giver of milk, a second mother to every child who is not breast fed. The Horse is eaten as meat in many places around the world including France and Italy, but these things are taboo in the US because there is some sentimental value attached to the horse, dog, cat, etc.

There is no correct answer on what animals should be eaten as food, or which animals should be treated better than others. These decisions are made based on cultural values, and not really on anything scientific or substantive.

For the record I think dog fighting is wrong, and I also think hunting deer for sport is wrong. I also think killing human beings over some WMDs that we knew werent there is wrong, and that it trumps all of this talk about dogs and animal cruelty. Interestingly though, I never hear the venom spewed at BUsh and co. the way it is slung at Michael Vick right now. He probably did some bad things to dogs, and hes gonna do some jail time for that. Hes not the Anti-Christ and hes not Hitler, and we really dont know the level of his involvement and never will because everyone rolled over on him to get a reduced sentence. I think many of you do not understand how these types of cases work. I have many friends in federal prison so I am very familiar with the process.

But look at it like this, Sammy the Bull Gravano confessed to 19 murders in a plea deal to nab John Gotti, and was given 5 years on a small racketeering charge in exchange. The feds want Vick, and they will offer others, who may have been more involved, lighter sentences in order to get him. They will say what the feds want them to say, thats just how it works.

This country is at war killing 100's of thousands of people, killing a couple of dogs is not what we should be focussed in on.
Marv
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8/21/2007  5:14 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Nix: I don't understand why pot is illegal and yet alcohol is legal. In my view there is no reason that pot is not legal. That being said, you don't see me going out and having doobie parties at my house and then electrocuting the one's that don't get people high enough

It doesn't matter what you think of a law. In a country where rule of law exists you must follow the ones that are on the books. If you don't like a law lobby to get it changed. If you don't like the fact that hunting is legal(something I despise) than lobby to get it changed.

Vick knows that gambling and dog fighting is illegal and it doesn't matter how anyone feels about the law. A law is a law. He is not being railroaded(actually I guess we will have to see the sentence before we declare this) but he is being treated like any criminal should. If Mike wants dog fighting to be legal than use your money and power to change the law or do it somewhere where it is legal.

Oh and for the record I could never shoot an animal and don't understand people that can. I actually am not short on opinions when I find a friend that does. That being said it is legal. And there is a big difference between thinning out populations that may explode and change the environment, and taking a dog/deer/monkey/chicken/bull/rat/snake/hippo/rhino and stringing it to a tree and hanging it. It takes a sick individual to do that. I dont' care what other laws are on the books. IF you do this, there is something wrong with you.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 21-08-2007 5:11 PM]

a rat? c'mon man we can't even hang a rat from a tree now?
Masterplan
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8/21/2007  5:15 PM
Posted by nixluva:

My point is that if we are gonna take a stance that something is barbaric then be freaking consistent. We chose Dog fighting and Kock fighting in this country and then left out a whole lot of other stuff because of the MONEY behind it or the cultural vein in this country finding it OK. Why just VIck? Go after all the animal offenders, in every field. They know exactly where they are cuz they abuse in plain sight. They won't cuz those aren't the ones we've deemed as bad enough to make illegal. VIck probably isn't even the biggest guy doing this, but he was probably the dumbest in terms of not concealing it well. The Fed's just wanted a high profile case to send a message. Once again i'm not saying I feel what Vick did was OK or that any animal abuse is OK, which i'm clearly against. I'm only speaking about the conscience of Americans and moral equivalency.

first of all, didn't mean for my disgust at vick and frustration with steph to get taken out on you if it seemed that way.

hoping for laws to be consistent... it's a good goal, definitely, but there will always be oversights, loopholes, etc. some of the cruelty you mentioned is maybe legal but regulated - there are all kinds of hunting, animal testing and agricultural laws on the books. so it's not like only dog and chicken fighting are illegal.

also, it's hard to judge how this case fits into the legal action picture... it's definitely the highest profile case in a while, but who knows what else is on the gov't docket? personally, i would be upset and uncomfortable if, say, vick gets a much stiffer sentence than his co-defendants. i'm not sure what kinds of sentences go down in animal cruelty cases these days; that's pretty much the only way i can judge if they're going after him to make an example because of his celebrity or if they're just doing their job.
Seanc3
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8/21/2007  5:17 PM
Is there a link for this? Not even Marbury is dumb enough to fall for this media bait with that quote.
Pharzeone
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8/21/2007  5:18 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Andrew:

Ok. Do you think his actual opinion is well thought out?

Better question is, is it outrageous to say " From what I hear dogfighting is a sport� when ESPN has an entire section of its web-site dedicated to hunting. I don�t agree that those two are equivalent, but do I think someone is dumb for drawing the parallel? No.

There are plenty of commentators on this situation, particularly in Atlanta, that feel the charges have been trumped up because Vick is a high profile black man. Again, I don�t agree that this is the case. But do I think those people are dumb for holding that opinion? No.

Can someone explain to me how game hunting is different from dog fighting?
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kam77
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8/21/2007  5:20 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by TrueBlue:

I would assume he's o.k. with the hangings and drownings of such animals too.

Someone needs to educate Marbury on the Law and the difference between domestic and non-domestic animals. Perfect example of his stupidity showing here.
Many athletes have spoken out about the Michael Vick situation. The latest is Knicks Star Guard, Stephon Marbury.

Speaking at a shoe release event outside Albany, Marbury said, "We don't say anything about people that shoot deer or shoot other animals. From what I hear dogfighting is a sport. It's just behind closed doors. And I think it's tough that we build Michael Vick up and then we break him down. I think he's one of the superb athletes and I think he's a good human being. I just think he fell into a bad situation."


He's right about the media though.
Educating someone on the difference of domestic vs non-dmostic animals is really a trivial, if cultural definition. In this country, dogs and cats are treated better than any other animal, and that is primarily because they are 'domesticated' people own them play with them and love them. This puts people like yourself (and many in the larger society) in the position of making a major distintion between the killing of dogs vs. an animal like a deer; when a major distinction really does not exist. Killing an animal is killing an animal. People who hunt deer, can eat the deer or not, it is irrelevan; they are hunting for sport, and do not depend on deer meat for their survival.

Steph's position is actually quite logical. If killing a deer is ok, why not a dog? What is so much worse about killing a dog? Nothing.

The chinese position, for example, on animals as food is a more logical position as well. The chinese say, we eat animals for food. That means, cows, pigs, dogs, cats, snakes, and many other animals. The Indian positon is that cows are sacred, they are to be treated as one's mother, a giver of milk, a second mother to every child who is not breast fed. The Horse is eaten as meat in many places around the world including France and Italy, but these things are taboo in the US because there is some sentimental value attached to the horse, dog, cat, etc.

There is no correct answer on what animals should be eaten as food, or which animals should be treated better than others. These decisions are made based on cultural values, and not really on anything scientific or substantive.

For the record I think dog fighting is wrong, and I also think hunting deer for sport is wrong. I also think killing human beings over some WMDs that we knew werent there is wrong, and that it trumps all of this talk about dogs and animal cruelty. Interestingly though, I never hear the venom spewed at BUsh and co. the way it is slung at Michael Vick right now. He probably did some bad things to dogs, and hes gonna do some jail time for that. Hes not the Anti-Christ and hes not Hitler, and we really dont know the level of his involvement and never will because everyone rolled over on him to get a reduced sentence. I think many of you do not understand how these types of cases work. I have many friends in federal prison so I am very familiar with the process.

But look at it like this, Sammy the Bull Gravano confessed to 19 murders in a plea deal to nab John Gotti, and was given 5 years on a small racketeering charge in exchange. The feds want Vick, and they will offer others, who may have been more involved, lighter sentences in order to get him. They will say what the feds want them to say, thats just how it works.

This country is at war killing 100's of thousands of people, killing a couple of dogs is not what we should be focussed in on.

Killa killin them softly with his words. Nice post.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
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Marbury O.K. With Vick's Dog Fighting

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