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Joe Torre quote on the Knicks…
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RemBee76
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8/21/2007  5:19 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I think it would affect his Revenue. Of course it would. So again, let's go back to blaming the owner who has short term vision on how to make money for the Knicks, instead of the NY fans who are usually blamed for managements inability to rebuild. When your team stinks fans stop going to games. When your team is getting better they start coming back. When the team is great the place is sold out. It's the same way in every city in America and yet New York is the only place where it's said the fans are the reason we can't rebuild.

I went to a Bulls game a year after Chicago traded Pippen & co. Place was packed, and I suspect their sell-out streak continued well into the rebuild. They had built enough credit with their fans after 6 championships that they were able to do a complete rebuild without losing revenue. Credit them for recognizing the moment was right. When was that moment for New York?

I recall a story I heard over the radio concerning Bonds' contract status in San Francisco this year. The owner said he wasn't going to move Bonds because he felt the San Francisco market was still driven by star power. So who is saying this only happens in New York? The owners of the Dodgers and Braves likely feel the same way.

I think your mistake is thinking I am assigning "blame", it is what it is. It seems wrong to you to “blame” the fans, ok, then don’t. Fact is if Dolan’s feel for this market told him that fans would stay interested through a multi-year rebuild, he probably would have gladly done so rather than shell out millions for flawed veterans. But I think we both agree that this isn’t the case, so in the end, if you have to blame someone blame Dolan for being unwilling to take the hit.

Just know that when I, or someone else, says you can’t rebuild in New York, we are referring to a corollary between staying relevant in this market and revenue, one which you already agree to. Its not a diss of New York fans, it’s a recognition that in this city we don’t suffer losers, and we got plenty of other things to do. That ain’t a bad thing.


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Bippity10
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8/21/2007  5:20 PM
I agree with anyone and everyone that says rebuilding will affect revenue. Of course it would. No arguments ever. My argument is when GM's and owners try to push this notion that in NY it is somehow different. That in other places you can rebuild and fans will patiently applaud you and cheer your efforts, while in NY, if you were to rebuild they would storm the offices and start killing people. Trust me, I am a Mariner/Seahawk fan. This is probably the most trusting and patient fan base in the history of sports. But when that team was rebuilding fans stopped going and boo'd and put bags over their heads just like they would in NY. Yet somehow that team rebuilt twice. The difference is ownership. In NY they are here to make money. They see the short term and they hire GM's that either see the short term or try to buy time before they rebuild. I agree with everyone on this. I just don't think any of this is due to the fans, which has been eluded to many times on this site by some. If you weren't one of them, then don't worry about it. But trust me, I don't root for only NY teams and I've seen the fans reactions elsewhere. It isn't much different.

Our problem is management.

As for the proper time to rebuild. Well according to 90% of the fans that proper time for us never came. But for Bip it came the moment we traded Patrick. We saw how far we were from a championship when SA shellacked us in the finals without Pat. Yet somehow we thought we could win after he was gone. I screamed about this daily. It is dam-n near impossible to win when the one reason you have been winnign for the past 15 years is no longer with you. That was our moment. But our management chose to continue the chirade for now 8 seasons.
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RemBee76
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8/21/2007  5:49 PM
So your position is that there is no difference between running a franchise in New York vs. running one in a comparatively small market like Seattle (or Portland for that matter). I can't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but I can't imagine that this is true. Every year around the trading deadline in baseball big market teams hoover up the talent from teams unwilling/unable to pony up the big bucks to hold on to their stars. Seems to me this is a business plan that works for them, so you can’t argue with Dolan’s mo from that point of view.

Of course from the point of view of informed fans, we could tolerate the losing if we felt it would lead to better things. Too bad that isn’t always so clear cut, and yes, the impatience of New York Fans and Media plays a part. I can’t imagine that newspapers in Seattle would be calling Channing Frye a bust a year and a half into his time here. And let’s not forget that the Media and Fans played a part in this team’s tripping up on Ewing’s departure during the period you described when collectively they had their “good riddance” moment, prompting PE to demand a trade. Fans in Indiana didn’t take the opportunity of winning without Reggie being a major contributor to dismiss his contributions to the team.

The only dumb part about blaming the fans is that they are only part of the picture. But they are a part. Of course it is their prerogative to not show up at the Garden, or to show up just to boo. But those actions spur Dolan to look for the next quick fix to tip the balance sheet.

Maybe it is just a Dolan thing. I can imagine a different owner taking over and eating the cost of running Madison Square Garden, enduring the disdain from the Mark Berman set, and risking long-term alienation from fans that have plenty of other competition for their entertainment dollar if the rebuild takes longer than expected.

Its just hard to imagine, damn hard.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
RemBee76
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8/21/2007  5:55 PM
And again, look at Torre's quote. He says its especially difficult in this town to rebuild via youth. Is he implying the fans and media in New York are to blame for this? I think its fair to say yes.

It may be a tough pill to swallow, but do you or I know more about this than Joe Torre? I don't think so.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
nixluva
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8/21/2007  6:08 PM
I still have a problem with the concept that rebuilds work most of the time. THEY DON'T. It's really hard to take a team from nothing and build it with young talent. Many perennial lottery teams have failed to get out of the basement even tho they have the high picks, youth and cap space that would suggest they should. So far Isiah has been here for 3.5 seasons and I don't think this team would necessarily be in any better shape if he had tried to rebuild from day one.

Sure we'd have different players and maybe even cap space, but that doesn't mean we'd be winning or setup with a team that could truly challenge for a title one day. If this team wins 42+ games this year then he's done his job of improving this team. If they get out of the 1st rd. then even more so has he done his job of getting this team closer to title contention. No matter how he's gone about it, the results are what matters most. He's worked in a lot of younger players and the fanbase hasn't abandoned the team, so for the bottom line he's done a good job. Now the team has to perform.
djsunyc
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8/21/2007  6:14 PM
yankees did their rebuilding from 1989-1994, that's when the keys were handed over to stick and showalter.

jeter, posada, bernie, pettite and mo were all on the 1996 team.

since then, the only young breakout player was soriano. why? b/c the yankees were winning titles and to perpetuate championships, you need vets. it definitely helped that those young guys listed above in the 96 team were darn good players.

10 years later, 6 straight years of playoff dissapointments and the focus shifted. and it only shifted b/c of the failure of winning titles. if we won in 2001 and then in 2003, 2004, 2006 - hughes, joba, etc probably would've never been yankees to begin with.

so with the knicks, they didn't win their titles, but they were close for 10 years. now, after 5 years of dissapointing seasons, the focus shifted to a youthier product. now it basically comes down to whether this management picked the right players.

cashman did not *break down* steinbrenner. he had to go to plan B b/c plan A was failing. not to mention that the yankees can afford to have a plan B while trying to execute plan A.

just like isiah. he actually benefitted from the most boring era in knicks history under layden b/c anything he tried to do after that debacle would've been better in both the fans and ownerships eyes. he started plan B in 2005 and that plan B is now plan A.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 08-21-2007 6:17 PM]
RemBee76
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8/21/2007  6:19 PM
Posted by nixluva:
He's worked in a lot of younger players and the fanbase hasn't abandoned the team, so for the bottom line he's done a good job. Now the team has to perform.

I disagree. MSG has been emptier under Isiah's tenure than it has been in 20 years. Maybe the fan base hasn't abandoned the team, but it sure has taken a hit.

Likely the only reason Dolan has kept Isiah on is that he thinks he is closer to a playoff berth now than he would be if he fired Thomas and started over with a new management team. He is probably right.

And then you have plenty of fans who have signed on to the Randolph trade and think it’s a steal because Channing Frye is a "bust". Rebuild my bottom.

I think the Knicks do have to perform this year. There has been no public ultimatum, but the Randolph trade has brought a lot of pressure on this team to win, and I don't expect Isiah to survive another lottery season.

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nixluva
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8/21/2007  6:22 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

yankees did their rebuilding from 1989-1994, that's when the keys were handed over to stick and showalter.

jeter, posada, bernie, pettite and mo were all on the 1996 team.

since then, the only young breakout player was soriano. why? b/c the yankees were winning titles and to perpetuate championships, you need vets. it definitely helped that those young guys listed above in the 96 team were darn good players.

10 years later, 6 straight years of playoff dissapointments and the focus shifted. and it only shifted b/c of the failure of winning titles. if we won in 2001 and then in 2003, 2004, 2006 - hughes, joba, etc probably would've never been yankees to begin with.

so with the knicks, they didn't win their titles, but they were close for 10 years. now, after 5 years of dissapointing seasons, the focus shifted to a youthier product. now it basically comes down to whether this management picked the right players.

cashman did not *break down* steinbrenner. he had to go to plan B b/c plan A was failing. not to mention that the yankees can afford to have a plan B while trying to execute plan A.

just like isiah. he actually benefitted from the most boring era in knicks history under layden b/c anything he tried to do after that debacle would've been better in both the fans and ownerships eyes. he started plan B in 2005 and that plan B is now plan A.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 08-21-2007 6:17 PM]

EXCELLENT POST! That is the best synopsis of this issue i've seen yet. It's always a matter of what is best for the team at that time. If you can keep the winning team going, then you're most likely gonna do that with vets. Detroit has been doing that of late, tho they haven't won another title, they're always in the picture. They haven't really restocked the shelves at all. That day will eventually come tho.
nixluva
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8/21/2007  6:29 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by nixluva:
He's worked in a lot of younger players and the fanbase hasn't abandoned the team, so for the bottom line he's done a good job. Now the team has to perform.
I disagree. MSG has been emptier under Isiah's tenure than it has been in 20 years. Maybe the fan base hasn't abandoned the team, but it sure has taken a hit.
That's just the natural attrition after the winning seasons ended. You build up a certain amount of credit with the fans. I did say abandon and that would mean a mass exodus of fans, which hasn't happened. It WOULD happen if they went with a traditional rebuild. Isiah bought just enough hope to keep fans somewhat interested and all the while he's restocked the shelves and now we just need to see some results. We didn't do a total rebuild, and that saved the bottom line for a bit longer. That is my point.
RemBee76
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8/21/2007  6:32 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
cashman did not *break down* steinbrenner. he had to go to plan B b/c plan A was failing. not to mention that the yankees can afford to have a plan B while trying to execute plan A

Not exactly. There were two camps in Yankee land, Steinbrenner's and Cashman's, and those two were often at odds with the boss winning most of the battles (the acquisition of Sheffield is one battle that comes to mind). Cash had to threaten to walk out entirely in 2005 before Steinbrenner conceded more control to his GM. The "losing" (if you could call it that) helped Cashman's case, but you better believe that three years ago George would have forced Cash to unload some of the valuable youth for established vets after a start like the one the Yankees had this year.

Isiah could never deflect the wishes of his boss in the same way, not right now. Dolan's own words: "We strive every year to put the best product we can on the floor." Thinly veiled code for "no rebuild". It isn't even necessarily about winning or losing for him, its just about appearing to contend to avoid the team becoming irrelevant.






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Allanfan20
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8/22/2007  2:21 AM
The team has been irrelevant for 6 straight seasons!
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Masterplan
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8/22/2007  10:20 AM
Posted by nixluva:

I still have a problem with the concept that rebuilds work most of the time. THEY DON'T. It's really hard to take a team from nothing and build it with young talent. Many perennial lottery teams have failed to get out of the basement even tho they have the high picks, youth and cap space that would suggest they should. So far Isiah has been here for 3.5 seasons and I don't think this team would necessarily be in any better shape if he had tried to rebuild from day one.

so what if rebuilds have no guarantees? isiah's stockpiling of assets has no guarantees either - no guarantees ZR fits with curry, no guarantees we'll land kobe in the next year. there are no guarantees that our non-rebuilding team will get out of the lottery this year. there are no guarantees in basketball, period. the fact that rebuilding through youth isn't a guaranteed championship or even resurgence is irrelevant. you're arguing against a straw man.

the issue has always been, will fans go away if we lose too many games? now, having seen a period of ****ty records, we know that fans will not. rebuilding should be a viable option, regardless of lack of guarantees.
nixluva
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8/22/2007  11:39 AM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by nixluva:

I still have a problem with the concept that rebuilds work most of the time. THEY DON'T. It's really hard to take a team from nothing and build it with young talent. Many perennial lottery teams have failed to get out of the basement even tho they have the high picks, youth and cap space that would suggest they should. So far Isiah has been here for 3.5 seasons and I don't think this team would necessarily be in any better shape if he had tried to rebuild from day one.

so what if rebuilds have no guarantees? isiah's stockpiling of assets has no guarantees either - no guarantees ZR fits with curry, no guarantees we'll land kobe in the next year. there are no guarantees that our non-rebuilding team will get out of the lottery this year. there are no guarantees in basketball, period. the fact that rebuilding through youth isn't a guaranteed championship or even resurgence is irrelevant. you're arguing against a straw man.

the issue has always been, will fans go away if we lose too many games? now, having seen a period of ****ty records, we know that fans will not. rebuilding should be a viable option, regardless of lack of guarantees.
There's a difference tho. A complete rebuild would be an admission to the fans that there's nothing to come and see. With this rebuild on the fly there has at least been the illusion of something to come and see. Each year there was some move that gave the fans hope that things would turn around. Last year during the middle of the season the team had won back the fans and things were looking up.

We don't have many examples of teams rebuilding from scratch and making it to the finals or even deep in the playoffs. Meaning they draft a franchise player and build with other young players around him, then add some vet help to finish off the team. The Orlando Magic with Shaq and Penny is the last one I can remember.

The league has made changes so that it's less likely for a team to have consecutive #1 picks. So you've got to get lucky as did Portland and Seattle. You also have to hope that a Superstar is available when you do have a high draft pick. In the last 4 drafts the only true Franchise players have been Howard, Oden and Durant. There have been a lot of good players but few on that elite level.

IMO Isiah has done a good job given that Dolan didn't want a rebuild. He's managed to stock this team with young talent and IMO a high level of talent. It's not Oden, Roy & Aldridge, but how many teams have that kind of combo of the lottery teams in the last 4-6 years?
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