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ot - bonds just hit 756
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Pharzeone
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8/8/2007  11:43 AM
Congrats to Barry Bonds for 756 but Wilson Chandler is still the better athlete.
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K22
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8/8/2007  11:51 AM
Good for him.

Can we move on with our lives now?
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fishmike
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8/8/2007  12:26 PM
Posted by tomverve:

Didn't they use a different ball in Babe's day? It wasn't as tight and didn't have as much pop off the bat. If he played with today's ball he would have hit even more. Then again, maybe pitching and scouting back then aren't what they are today. Maybe if Babe played today that would work against his HR record.

Bottom line is that you can't really compare across eras, especially when the basic parameters of the game (kind of ball, dimensions of ballparks) differ. Steroid use muddies the comparison across eras, but it's just one more factor on the pile. You couldn't compare these records on even ground in the first place, steroids or not. That doesn't justify the steroid use but it does make talk of "asterisks" silly in my mind. Every number has an asterisk next to it, it's the years over which the records were set and all that changed between those years and previous and subsequent years.
actually, thats exactly why you can compare across era's and thats what makes baseball's records so important. The rules and equipment of the game have not changed for about 110 years. The dead ball era your speaking of 1890-1910. I know because I play those rules with that equipment.

The specs of the modern baseball, as well as the rules have not changed since Ruth played.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
kam77
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8/8/2007  1:05 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by tomverve:

Didn't they use a different ball in Babe's day? It wasn't as tight and didn't have as much pop off the bat. If he played with today's ball he would have hit even more. Then again, maybe pitching and scouting back then aren't what they are today. Maybe if Babe played today that would work against his HR record.

Bottom line is that you can't really compare across eras, especially when the basic parameters of the game (kind of ball, dimensions of ballparks) differ. Steroid use muddies the comparison across eras, but it's just one more factor on the pile. You couldn't compare these records on even ground in the first place, steroids or not. That doesn't justify the steroid use but it does make talk of "asterisks" silly in my mind. Every number has an asterisk next to it, it's the years over which the records were set and all that changed between those years and previous and subsequent years.
actually, thats exactly why you can compare across era's and thats what makes baseball's records so important. The rules and equipment of the game have not changed for about 110 years. The dead ball era your speaking of 1890-1910. I know because I play those rules with that equipment.

The specs of the modern baseball, as well as the rules have not changed since Ruth played.

Comparing players from different eras is not impossible, but there are way too many factors to take into consideration. Much more than rules and the weight of the ball. We need to talk about the pitching mound. We need to talk about the advent of specialty relievers. The smaller ballparks and expansion play a role too.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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8/8/2007  1:05 PM
oh fish, you dumb bastard...

you should be thanking your lucky stars that he dumbed himself down enough to only use 1 and 2 syllable words so we can understand him on this forum.
Solace
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8/8/2007  1:35 PM
Posted by LBeast:

* - played against whites only

Why is that a knock against Ruth? Ruth didn't make those rules. Invalid comparison, as Bonds knowingly violated the rules. Also, remember that there were less teams back then, so the talent level wasn't quite as distilled as it is today.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
fishmike
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8/8/2007  2:18 PM
if the Babe hit in todays ball parks he would have hit 100 home runs a year. Instead he often hit more homers himself than other TEAMS hit.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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8/8/2007  2:19 PM
best 1-2 punch in the history of sports
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tomverve
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8/8/2007  2:26 PM
Posted by fishmike:

actually, thats exactly why you can compare across era's and thats what makes baseball's records so important. The rules and equipment of the game have not changed for about 110 years. The dead ball era your speaking of 1890-1910. I know because I play those rules with that equipment.

The specs of the modern baseball, as well as the rules have not changed since Ruth played.

OK, I stand corrected about the ball. Still, changes in overall quality of hitting/pitching, league trends, typical player training, scouting etc really do make comparisons across eras a bit of a non-starter. The same is true in basketball and any other sport. You can use records to make coarse comparisons between players with big differences in their numbers, because it's unlikely that very big differences are purely an effect of different eras. But the fact that Bonds has hit one more career HR than Aaron (as of now) isn't particularly meaningful, whether Bonds cheated or not.
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fishmike
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8/8/2007  3:07 PM
Tom, if its not that meaningfull why is it on the front page of everything everywhere sports, non sports or otherwise?

For a hundred years guys have been playing the same game under the same conditions with the same equipment. The venues have changed and of course there are era related factors, but the standard for measuring success has NOT changed.

A guy with a .300 average was a good hitter in 1905. Still is
A guy who hits 20-30 homers a year in 1905 had good power. Still does
A 20 game winner was dominant in any era.

So little has changed.. thats what makes it great to compare the 27 Yankees and 98 Yankees.

I wonder how Lou Gehrig would have faired against pitching from the DRay, or if he played 81 games in Camden Yards?

I am quite sure Pedro Martinez would been great in any era, and that Wilcy Moore would have been a weapon out of the bullpen in any era

Its a wash... thats why baseball stats are more important that any other sport's
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
knicksavvy
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8/8/2007  3:44 PM
Bonds the greatest Baseball player ever Period.
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TMS
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8/8/2007  3:45 PM
the Babe was a dominant pitcher in his early years on top of being the most dominant player of alltime relative to his era in the majors... the Negro Leagues argument is valid, & you can also say that he never faced many players of other ethnic descent either, but then you also have to take into account the much worse playing conditions, the heavier ball, the much more rudimentary conditioning regimens, etc.... Bonds is the most dominant hitter of THIS era, but compared to the rest of the league the differences are not as stark in contrast... i mean the Babe was hitting more HR's in a single season than some entire teams were the same year... that's just insane.

it would be awesome to have a simulation of Babe put up against the likes of Pedro in his heyday, or Johan Santana, etc.... but that's a debate that can never be answered... for that matter i'd love to know how Sadaharu Oh would have faired against Major Leaguers over his career... the guy hit 868 HRs for God's sakes on top of winning 9 MVP awards, 5 batting titles, 3 triple crowns & 18 allstar appearances over his career! if that's not dominant i don't know what is... btw, little known fact that Oh was actually 1/2 Chinese who was denied citizenship in his own country because he wasn't 100% Japanese descent... but you never hear about that when Japanese baseball history claims him as their champion now... so Hank Aaron & Barry Bonds weren't the only great ballplayers that had to face discrimination in their day.

IMO, all we can fairly judge Ruth on is how he dominated the league in which he played in, & by that standard there was never a more dominant player in the history of sports... Ruth also played in a Yankee Stadium that was 461' to dead CF (though to be fair the RF wall was about 295' or thereabouts & he was a dead pull hitter).

Bonds is an immortal, there's no question about that in my eyes... he woulda been a HOFer regardless if he took roids or not... i have a lot of respect for him... but as far as being considered the greatest of alltime, i think the suspicions surrounding this record & the whole BALCO thing will linger in people's minds forever, & if it's true that he cheated (which is pretty evident if you look at the extreme & sudden jump in his stats & body shape), then he deserves all that he gets from the public outcry over him trumping Hank Aaron's alltime major league HR record.

he only has about 130 left to hit before he beats Sadaharu Oh's record.
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knicksavvy
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8/8/2007  4:01 PM
That is a good and reasonable argument,, Thanks TMS
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kam77
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8/8/2007  5:49 PM
Bonds got in the way of his own legacy. He will be remembered as a great but everyone will remember the tainted way he went about extending his career.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
nykshaknbake
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8/8/2007  8:32 PM
I don't get this...you're saying black pitchers are better than white pitchers so Ruth's record doesn't count? Given the composition of the top pitchers are in todays's game I hardly think that's a valid statement.
Posted by LBeast:


Here's to ya Barry! Shake them haters off. I dont care that you used steroids. Those old mutha****as cheated too. Its not your fault science is better now.


If that assclown Selig wants to put an asterisk next to your record, might I suggest one be placed next to all of Babe Ruth's numbers:

* - played against whites only
tomverve
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8/8/2007  11:21 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Tom, if its not that meaningfull why is it on the front page of everything everywhere sports, non sports or otherwise?

By that reasoning Paris Hilton's life is meaningful.
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TMS
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8/9/2007  1:16 AM
Posted by TMS:

the Babe was a dominant pitcher in his early years on top of being the most dominant player of alltime relative to his era in the majors... the Negro Leagues argument is valid, & you can also say that he never faced many players of other ethnic descent either, but then you also have to take into account the much worse playing conditions, the heavier ball, the much more rudimentary conditioning regimens, etc.... Bonds is the most dominant hitter of THIS era, but compared to the rest of the league the differences are not as stark in contrast... i mean the Babe was hitting more HR's in a single season than some entire teams were the same year... that's just insane.

it would be awesome to have a simulation of Babe put up against the likes of Pedro in his heyday, or Johan Santana, etc.... but that's a debate that can never be answered... for that matter i'd love to know how Sadaharu Oh would have faired against Major Leaguers over his career... the guy hit 868 HRs for God's sakes on top of winning 9 MVP awards, 5 batting titles, 3 triple crowns & 18 allstar appearances over his career! if that's not dominant i don't know what is... btw, little known fact that Oh was actually 1/2 Chinese who was denied citizenship in his own country because he wasn't 100% Japanese descent... but you never hear about that when Japanese baseball history claims him as their champion now... so Hank Aaron & Barry Bonds weren't the only great ballplayers that had to face discrimination in their day.

IMO, all we can fairly judge Ruth on is how he dominated the league in which he played in, & by that standard there was never a more dominant player in the history of sports... Ruth also played in a Yankee Stadium that was 461' to dead CF (though to be fair the RF wall was about 295' or thereabouts & he was a dead pull hitter).

Bonds is an immortal, there's no question about that in my eyes... he woulda been a HOFer regardless if he took roids or not... i have a lot of respect for him... but as far as being considered the greatest of alltime, i think the suspicions surrounding this record & the whole BALCO thing will linger in people's minds forever, & if it's true that he cheated (which is pretty evident if you look at the extreme & sudden jump in his stats & body shape), then he deserves all that he gets from the public outcry over him trumping Hank Aaron's alltime major league HR record.

he only has about 130 left to hit before he beats Sadaharu Oh's record.

sorry, i stand corrected... the dimensions when Ruth was playing at Yankee Stadium were 490' to straight away CF & 460'/429' to the alleys! even more impressive.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Killa4luv
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8/9/2007  1:28 AM
I have to agree with Both TOm and Fish to differing degrees. Baseball has the special claim to be virtually unchanged over the years, I agree, and I trhink that makes comparisons across eras more valid in baseball than in other sports.

BUT, so many other things have changed.

1. Negro league argument is valid to the extent that they were a strong talent pool and would have dramatically altered the talent level of the MLB and hence, Babes comp. When you look at it, the negro leagues have produced arguably 2 of the best players to ever play the game in Hank Aaron and Willie Mays. Jackie Robinson, Satchel Page and Josh Gibson are among the best ever as well. Generations of negro league players never played in the MLB, and knowing what we know now, theres no reason to believe the ones who made the MLB wouldn't have been a force.

2. The science of excercise, training, pitching, etc, is much much higher than it was when babe was playing. It changes the game and a guy with Babe's ability now, would have to be better based on scientific advancements alone.

bishop
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8/9/2007  10:43 AM
Good for Bonds but he put himself in the middle of the steroids mess. Personally, I think he only did steroids the one year he hit 73 other than that all his other years look very attainable. So i mean realistically assuming he hit 45 that year(which is probably what he would of hit) he wouldnt of broken the record until next year at best.

Anywho..my boy Ken Griffey Jr. would have easily been close or broken the record right now if it wasnt for injuries!! Imagine if him and Bonds were in a race to finish as the all time HR hitter. Ofcourse Griffey would eventually win since he's like 4 years younger.

Records are meant to be broken but hopefully Bonds doesnt hit more then 800 before retiring so we can see someone else break the record. Maybe A-Rod,
fishmike
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8/9/2007  10:55 AM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by fishmike:

Tom, if its not that meaningfull why is it on the front page of everything everywhere sports, non sports or otherwise?

By that reasoning Paris Hilton's life is meaningful.
You hit a couple of home runs it doesnt make you a home run hitter

You give a guy head once and your always a c***sucker.

Paris has never gotten the kind of publicity that Barry has gotten. I dont know what your point there is
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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