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Martin on Scott Layden
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Andrew
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5/16/2003  4:29 PM
Ostertag...drafted 28th in 1995. Out of the 30 players drafted after him (look it up) only one has had a better career than Ostertag. Eric Snow drafted at #43. That is not a bad draft pick regardless of how bad people criticise his play. Its not a superstar pick, but it a decent pick for the talent available.
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tkf
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5/16/2003  4:39 PM
Grunfeld was a better Gm than layden, he made that sprewell trade and the trade of an aging oakley for Camby, that alone is better than anything layden has done.

Also the same year Ewing was drafted the knicks drafted like in the 3rd round, Gerald Wilkins who was much better than Anderson...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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5/16/2003  4:42 PM
Posted by Andrew:

Ostertag...drafted 28th in 1995. Out of the 30 players drafted after him (look it up) only one has had a better career than Ostertag. Eric Snow drafted at #43. That is not a bad draft pick regardless of how bad people criticise his play. Its not a superstar pick, but it a decent pick for the talent available.

andrew, I would say Andrew declerq and Don Reid who was picked at #58 the last pick have been as productive as that headcase scrub Oesterbunny, i mean oesterfag, I mean oestertag...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
ARES
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5/16/2003  4:51 PM
ostertag has had one of the worse careers of any nba player in history, he has been often maligned for his terrible uninspired "Soft" play by none other than Karl malone and jerry Sloan. This is not a guy we should be braggin about in the slightest.
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ARES
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5/16/2003  5:13 PM
Martin , I didn't have that much time to REally dive into this like i wanted. Cause i do my own research i don't rely on insider (RAIN) but Checked a few years of Scott's drafting. All this is after the fact so we cant kill scott Too much, or can we??/ In 87 he picks Jose Ortiz, number 15....how many people have saw him play, passing over Mark Jackson and reggie Lewis...88 at 19 he picks Eric leckner passing Stricland,Shaw,maxwell,Kerr and Mason, 89 he picks BLUE EDWARDS, passing over Vlade and Cliff robison,90 he picks Walt Palmer, over ced Ceballos ans Greg Foster, 91 erick murdock at 21 passinf rick fox,bobby phils and Richard Dumas.....did we mention Luther Wright when he passed Chris mills,van exel,e.johnson,Sam Cassell and lucious harris........I stopped at that point, have a Good weekend ALL
NEW YORK, NEW YORK BIG CITY OF DREAMS, BUT EVERYTHING IN NEW YORK AINT ALWAYS WHAT IT SEEMS
Andrew
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5/16/2003  5:14 PM
Posted by tkf:

Grunfeld was a better Gm than layden, he made that sprewell trade and the trade of an aging oakley for Camby, that alone is better than anything layden has done.

I agree that Grunfeld was a better GM. Much better overall. I'm just talking about drafting.

Agreed, O, Declerq and Reid have all had similar careers, but you can't say they were any better.
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spencerdoobie
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5/16/2003  5:20 PM
anyone who says Layden does not understand basketball is a total idiot..........let's get our facts straight. the man was an assistant coach for 10 years, a scout for another 5, a director of player peronsel in utah for another 5 before being haired as the gm in new york. i will admit, Layden has taken some calculated risks that did not work out.....but answer me this: what was he supposed to do when Ewing was begging to be traded? You all would have done exactly what Layden did, find the best deal available. how was he supposed to know that Glen Rice was going to be such a bust and barley be able to move? how was he supposed to know that Luc Longley was uninterested in being a basketball player anymore and just wanted to get paid so he could surf in australlia? ya, it's easy to say that in hindsight we should have let ewing's contract come off the books, but hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. And how many of you can honsetly say you would not have done the mcdyees deal? nobody knew the extent of his knee problems. He was 27 at the time of the trade, had been an all star, a bonified 20-10 guy. Layden HAD to make that deal and anyone who says that they would not make that move is either LYING or on crack! Yes, Layden has made some mistakes, but for the most part he is a victim of very bad luck. He is a good GM and an even better person and I hope he has better luck in the future.......

Let's get Lebron!
KARNIVORE
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Nigeria
5/16/2003  5:41 PM
ERNIE GRUNFIELD was responsible for STARKS, CAMBY, SPREWELL, HOUSTON, XMAN, MASON, HARPER, RIVERS & OAKLEY !!!!! Compare to LADEN with ANDERSON, EISLY, LUTHER WRIGHT , CHENOWORTHLESS, DAVID BENOIT, MCDYESS trade that gave away NENE who is on the all rookie team !!!!
ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, BUT THEY ARE NOT TREATED EQUAL !!!
DefAndReb
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5/16/2003  5:49 PM
I agree with you on the McDyess trade and the Ewing trade, but on Longley? Longley told the Knicks that he was injured and could not play, and they picked him up anyway. There was no surprise there.
rain
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5/16/2003  5:49 PM
Karnivore... try to stay focused. Were talking about drafting players , not signing them as Free Agents and/or trading. No argument that layden sucks... were narrowing down where he sucks. He has done some really poor work in NY. Drafting is not really the culprit... he's proven he's, at least... adequate in that area. Its the team construction... putting parts together that is the problem. Ares... those search engines are really tough to use. I actually named players that have been drafted by him to dispell your weak, non-existent argument. Bring something to table kid... hand waving and acronyms like LOL... don't cut it.
tkf
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5/16/2003  7:07 PM
Posted by ARES:

Martin , I didn't have that much time to REally dive into this like i wanted. Cause i do my own research i don't rely on insider (RAIN) but Checked a few years of Scott's drafting. All this is after the fact so we cant kill scott Too much, or can we??/ In 87 he picks Jose Ortiz, number 15....how many people have saw him play, passing over Mark Jackson and reggie Lewis...88 at 19 he picks Eric leckner passing Stricland,Shaw,maxwell,Kerr and Mason, 89 he picks BLUE EDWARDS, passing over Vlade and Cliff robison,90 he picks Walt Palmer, over ced Ceballos ans Greg Foster, 91 erick murdock at 21 passinf rick fox,bobby phils and Richard Dumas.....did we mention Luther Wright when he passed Chris mills,van exel,e.johnson,Sam Cassell and lucious harris........I stopped at that point, have a Good weekend ALL

HAHA!!! good post
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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5/16/2003  7:16 PM
Posted by spencerdoobie:

anyone who says Layden does not understand basketball is a total idiot..........let's get our facts straight. the man was an assistant coach for 10 years, a scout for another 5, a director of player peronsel in utah for another 5 before being haired as the gm in new york. i will admit, Layden has taken some calculated risks that did not work out.....but answer me this: what was he supposed to do when Ewing was begging to be traded? You all would have done exactly what Layden did, find the best deal available. how was he supposed to know that Glen Rice was going to be such a bust and barley be able to move? how was he supposed to know that Luc Longley was uninterested in being a basketball player anymore and just wanted to get paid so he could surf in australlia? ya, it's easy to say that in hindsight we should have let ewing's contract come off the books, but hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. And how many of you can honsetly say you would not have done the mcdyees deal? nobody knew the extent of his knee problems. He was 27 at the time of the trade, had been an all star, a bonified 20-10 guy. Layden HAD to make that deal and anyone who says that they would not make that move is either LYING or on crack! Yes, Layden has made some mistakes, but for the most part he is a victim of very bad luck. He is a good GM and an even better person and I hope he has better luck in the future.......

Let's get Lebron!

come on dukes, I don't care about his credentials, all we know is that his work to date has been horrible. THE MAN DOES NOT UNDERSTAND HOW TO RUN A BASKETBALL TEAM...PERIOD!!!!

fIRST OF ALL I would not have done the trade for a guy comming off major knee surgery, not for this team that desperately needed to get young and develop a good big man, this for a GM is called knowing you team and what it needs, not making rushed moves....

As far as Ewing goes, that is no excuse man, If kobe went to Mitch Kupchak and demanded a trade should mitch give in and trade him for a bunch of overpaid bums, I mean the Houston Rockets wanted to get rid of Anderson, Steve francis would not pass him the ball, the team laughed at his contract demand, and what do the knicks do? we take both him and Eisley off their hands with one fell swoop.. come on dukes good basketball people don't make these moves....

A good Gm would have tried to make Ewing happy his last year here and let him walk off the books the next year, a good knowledgeable basketball man would have done that!!!
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
BRIGGS
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5/16/2003  10:06 PM
Let's be honest-in 3 years Laydumb hasn't made 1 good move and the ONLy reason the team won 65 games the last two seasons is because of the core Thomas Houston Sprewell that was left behind. He can't give a straight answer and talks in the third person. And now under pressure he will sink to new lows and trade for Rasheed Wallace for the pick and all of our ending contracts. He will sell out to the biggest punk in the league because he is under pressure and the dumb Knicks will give him a 6 year 100mm dollar extension--that runs until he is 37. This will end up being shawn kemp or Vin Baker 2.

My belief is the Knicks should concentrate on making the playoffs but with a larger goal in mind.

Instead of taking risks on injured players--players who are past their prime or players like Wallace--go low key and look for young cheaper talent that has not fully hit potential.

I identify Stromile Swift as a perfect target. He has averaged 11 points 6 rebounds and nearly 2 blocks in only 23 mts on 48% shooting in the West and plays behind Gasol. If you project those numbers out--you are looking at a 17-18 -10-1 -3 block player in 40 mts who only makes 4mm.

This draft is crazy--you can easily get good picks later in the draft.

What i would like to see the Knicks do is trade the lottery pick + knight[ending contract]for Swift and the 27.

Subsuquently, we can move the 31 and 39 up into the 1st round to a team like NJ at 22 and use the picks on two young athletic frontcourt players for the future.


@22 Josh Powell 6-10 sophmore PF out of NCST
@27 Ndudi Ebi 6-10 SF out of HS

Buyout Ward which saves 4mm soI can use the MLE and use the money on
Antonio Daniels PG 27 YO 6-4 205 2 years 6mm
Elden Cambpell C 7-0 270 1 year 1.75mm

That would give me a team a 9-10man rotation of

C- Swift 6-9 1/2 240
PF Thomas 6-9 235
SF Andersen 6-6 210
SG Houston 6-6 200
PG Daniels 6-4 205
Cambpell 7-0 270[10-15 mts a night]or Doleac6-11 265 for 10-15 mts
PF Harrington 6-7 230
SF Sprewell 6-5 190
pg Eisley 6-2 180


Spoon Powell
IR
Mcdyess Williams Ebi


This core[nOW] team is built stronger and more athletic in the frontcourt with a top tier shot blocker and a bigger strong player at the 3Andersen and 1 Daniels.

With cambpell and doleac I can mix and match size against certain teams and keep their minutes down so we stay fresh on our back to backs--which were 2-14 last year. I also moved sprewell to the second unit to spark his game.

On top of that I have two STUD frontcourt prospects who take Knight and Popes place. the plan isto keepthe payroll as low as p[ossible and gain top tier CHEAP young talent--and let contracts expire y-y.first Mcdyess then sprewell--and then as the younger players mature and roster spots clear out--THEN I look for a franchise player to put around the talent. there is no reason why we cant be playoff competitive forthe next 2-3 years and then go for along run at championships. the Mcdyess hit was a big one-we have to many older players--the best plan is a 2-3 year on the fly rebuild using a plan of going after BIG multi faceted athletic skill players.

There will be some nice centers in the draft next year and they can replace cambell's placeon the roster. Just as a model etc...
the coreteamuptop can go atleast 2 rounds into the playoffs if not 3.that shouldsatisfy for the present but the goalis for ayoung team with superior talent that can make a 12-15 year playoff run and have the ability to win it all. If we dont do this and keep trying to band aid we will run intothe position of having 8-9 guys who are 35 years old and no one in the pipeline

Cheers
RIP Crushalot😞
tkf
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5/16/2003  11:20 PM
Good post briggs: A lot of us have been preaching the same thing around here. Layden is working for a owner that holds no one accountable, so I don't see why he is under so much pressure that he has to make such shortsighted moves. That baffles me..

As far as your idea, I agree, we need some younger cheaper athletic players to groom on this team, our bench has the likes of nailon, knight, pope, and that is not good enough, I mean for christ sakes teams like the Grizzlies had guys like Swift and Randolph riding the bench waiting to blossom while we have Postel, and Pope..LOL... Our rotation off the bench consists of guys like Anderson and eisley for christ sakes, after watching the knicks this season, I have more respect for Houston, spree and KT, because to play with a team with such little talent showed how good these guys were.... We have 3 good picks this year and a GM without a clue, we do not need to take any more risks, no Rasheed wallaces, but if we do make a move I want guys like Elton Brand, Young, talented, Plays hard and wants to win.... I don't want any more reclimation projects, no more players looking to salvage their images or careers, I want a hungry player, a Younger team, I want to see some dunks in a game comming from the knicks side, I want to see some real bball...

Anyone who does not see that layden is in over his head is a fool!!!
This guy has littered this team with mediocre overpaid talent, hell anyone can do that, yet he is rewarded with being able to keep his Job. If any of us ruined the companies we work for the same way I guarantee you we would be fired!!!
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
spencerdoobie
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5/17/2003  1:02 AM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by spencerdoobie:

anyone who says Layden does not understand basketball is a total idiot..........let's get our facts straight. the man was an assistant coach for 10 years, a scout for another 5, a director of player peronsel in utah for another 5 before being haired as the gm in new york. i will admit, Layden has taken some calculated risks that did not work out.....but answer me this: what was he supposed to do when Ewing was begging to be traded? You all would have done exactly what Layden did, find the best deal available. how was he supposed to know that Glen Rice was going to be such a bust and barley be able to move? how was he supposed to know that Luc Longley was uninterested in being a basketball player anymore and just wanted to get paid so he could surf in australlia? ya, it's easy to say that in hindsight we should have let ewing's contract come off the books, but hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. And how many of you can honsetly say you would not have done the mcdyees deal? nobody knew the extent of his knee problems. He was 27 at the time of the trade, had been an all star, a bonified 20-10 guy. Layden HAD to make that deal and anyone who says that they would not make that move is either LYING or on crack! Yes, Layden has made some mistakes, but for the most part he is a victim of very bad luck. He is a good GM and an even better person and I hope he has better luck in the future.......

Let's get Lebron!

come on dukes, I don't care about his credentials, all we know is that his work to date has been horrible. THE MAN DOES NOT UNDERSTAND HOW TO RUN A BASKETBALL TEAM...PERIOD!!!!

fIRST OF ALL I would not have done the trade for a guy comming off major knee surgery, not for this team that desperately needed to get young and develop a good big man, this for a GM is called knowing you team and what it needs, not making rushed moves....

As far as Ewing goes, that is no excuse man, If kobe went to Mitch Kupchak and demanded a trade should mitch give in and trade him for a bunch of overpaid bums, I mean the Houston Rockets wanted to get rid of Anderson, Steve francis would not pass him the ball, the team laughed at his contract demand, and what do the knicks do? we take both him and Eisley off their hands with one fell swoop.. come on dukes good basketball people don't make these moves....

A good Gm would have tried to make Ewing happy his last year here and let him walk off the books the next year, a good knowledgeable basketball man would have done that!!!
DefAndReb
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5/17/2003  10:01 AM
Posted by tkf:



As far as Ewing goes, that is no excuse man, If kobe went to Mitch Kupchak and demanded a trade should mitch give in and trade him for a bunch of overpaid bums, I mean the Houston Rockets wanted to get rid of Anderson, Steve francis would not pass him the ball, the team laughed at his contract demand, and what do the knicks do? we take both him and Eisley off their hands with one fell swoop.. come on dukes good basketball people don't make these moves....

A good Gm would have tried to make Ewing happy his last year here and let him walk off the books the next year, a good knowledgeable basketball man would have done that!!!

Incorrect.

Ewing should have retired after 1999, but he was too stubborn and proud to admit he wasn't any good anymore. He refused to come off the bench. No way we could have kept him on the team with him refusing to come off the bench. As a GM, that's self-defeating, having an openly disgruntled aging superstar on your team.

Kobe demanding a trade is different. Kobe is young, in his prime and plays great. Ewing was like watching an old giraffe at the zoo try to keep its neck from tipping over.

Layden gave Ewing what he wanted, which was a starting role. It had to be on another team, a team that soon after put Ewing on the bench.

The only way Ewing was going to be happy was starting at center, and that just wasn't going to happen on the Knicks. The problem wasn't that Layden got rid of Ewing (a good thing) it was that we picked up Rice in the ensuing deal (a bad thing) and didn't proceed to move him to another team for a big man, mainly because, surprise, Rice was injured, just like Longley, and Layden knew it. Getting rid of Ewing was the right thing to do - he had been holding the club back for 3 seasons prior.

If only the Knicks would get started on the post-Ewing era already. They're still in a holding pattern, three seasons later. Allan Houston is not a franchise player. He's a solid second or third scoring option.

This is Layden's problem. He can't convince the great players to play on this team. No one great wants to play here, because they're all afraid of the media pressure. So, we have to rely on trades and non-lotto draft picks, which is great for building a strong support structure, but it won't land you a superstar 90% of the time. The best way to get a star is through free agency or top-3 pick.
playa2
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5/17/2003  10:46 AM
Great post scoobie, I have been trying to tell these guys for yrs that many guys can't and don't want to deal with the pressure of playing in MSG. Opposing players love to play here because this is how the media gives them their props so the knicks are always in a battle. Dolan not Layden is the culprit!
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
Pike
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5/17/2003  12:08 PM
Posted by spencerdoobie:

anyone who says Layden does not understand basketball is a total idiot..........

Obviously, the term was used with a great grain of sarcasm... Being that we're being bold with our statements... invoking my first ammendment rights... anybody that supports this idiot (Layden) doesn't know a thing about the game of basketball.



[Edited by - Pike on 05/17/2003 12:42:15]
tkf
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5/17/2003  1:39 PM
Posted by DefAndReb:
Posted by tkf:



As far as Ewing goes, that is no excuse man, If kobe went to Mitch Kupchak and demanded a trade should mitch give in and trade him for a bunch of overpaid bums, I mean the Houston Rockets wanted to get rid of Anderson, Steve francis would not pass him the ball, the team laughed at his contract demand, and what do the knicks do? we take both him and Eisley off their hands with one fell swoop.. come on dukes good basketball people don't make these moves....

A good Gm would have tried to make Ewing happy his last year here and let him walk off the books the next year, a good knowledgeable basketball man would have done that!!!

Incorrect.

Ewing should have retired after 1999, but he was too stubborn and proud to admit he wasn't any good anymore. He refused to come off the bench. No way we could have kept him on the team with him refusing to come off the bench. As a GM, that's self-defeating, having an openly disgruntled aging superstar on your team.

Kobe demanding a trade is different. Kobe is young, in his prime and plays great. Ewing was like watching an old giraffe at the zoo try to keep its neck from tipping over.

Layden gave Ewing what he wanted, which was a starting role. It had to be on another team, a team that soon after put Ewing on the bench.

The only way Ewing was going to be happy was starting at center, and that just wasn't going to happen on the Knicks. The problem wasn't that Layden got rid of Ewing (a good thing) it was that we picked up Rice in the ensuing deal (a bad thing) and didn't proceed to move him to another team for a big man, mainly because, surprise, Rice was injured, just like Longley, and Layden knew it. Getting rid of Ewing was the right thing to do - he had been holding the club back for 3 seasons prior.

If only the Knicks would get started on the post-Ewing era already. They're still in a holding pattern, three seasons later. Allan Houston is not a franchise player. He's a solid second or third scoring option.

This is Layden's problem. He can't convince the great players to play on this team. No one great wants to play here, because they're all afraid of the media pressure. So, we have to rely on trades and non-lotto draft picks, which is great for building a strong support structure, but it won't land you a superstar 90% of the time. The best way to get a star is through free agency or top-3 pick.

Incorrect?
What the Hell is incorrect?
You are basing your argument on the premise of Ewing retiring? Ewing was NOT going to retire, eventhough he should have in 99 he was not retiring and since that was not happening the knicks should have smoothed things over, keep the peace and let him ride out the final year, albeit off the bench or starting. The comparison with Kobe is correct because weither it is a old superstar or a young one, you don't put your team in salry cap hell with overpaid bums for the next 7 years just to make a guy happy!!! The knicks had 1 year left with Ewing and Layden instead of being a real GM put the knicks future in jeapordy with that trade..

I don't see how you can think otherwise!!!
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
spencerdoobie
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5/17/2003  1:50 PM
Posted by Pike:
Posted by spencerdoobie:

anyone who says Layden does not understand basketball is a total idiot..........

Obviously, the term was used with a great grain of sarcasm... Being that we're being bold with our statements... invoking my first ammendment rights... anybody that supports this idiot (Layden) doesn't know a thing about the game of basketball.

sorry tough guy, but i am a knick fan at the end of the day and while i agree that layden has made his fair share of bad calls i will continue to support him and hope for his success because he is running the team that i love................if my support and belief in my squad makes me an idiot than so be it.......personally, i believe that people who come on message boards and refer to a man who was partly resposible for a run of 20 straight years in the playoffs (think about that streak for a minute before you jump to respond, it's pretty incredible) as an "idiot" is a dip****.......
true, stcokton, malone, frank layden, dave checketts, jerry sloan all had a lot to due with the success in utah along with scott layden, but scott layden ran the franchise for a long time and ran it well......he is far from an idiot
i don't deny that Layden has not done the job thus far in nyc, but i think that the jury is still out on many of his moves (mcdyees, milos) the reality is he inherited a very tough situtaion and it all started with the ewing situation. (by the way, who was the dumbass that drew a paralell between ewing demanding a trade and hypothetically speaking if kobe was to go to kupchek and demand to be traded? those situations would be handled so differently, it is a waste of my time to try to explain that. honestly, that is THE WORST analogy I have ever heard)
i am not saying that layden should be a finalist for executive of the year, but i am saying that i think most people are way to quick to pin all of the knicks problems on him. in reality, if you are looking for someone to lay the blame on for the demise of the knicks, you need look no forthur than james dolan.

it was dolan that forced out checketts, he was also the reson van gundy left. checketts originally hired layden to be more of a behind the scenes glorified scout so to speak. true, he was named vice pres. but the original plan was to leave him behind the scenes and let checketts handle the pr, player and coach relations and business end of it all. checketts is the type of leader that people respect, layden does not come accross as well. so his problems are magnified that much more becasue he does not handle the press well and does not come accross as a passionate, capabale leader. when checketts and van gundy left, dolan panicked and made layden the face of the entire franchsie. that was the big mistake. layden is a capable vice pres or head scout, but as a gm he is in over his head. THAT my friends is dolan's fault. crucify layden all you want, but the man who deserves your wrath is jimmy (son of cabelvision) dolan......




[Edited by - Pike on 05/17/2003 12:42:15]
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