Posted by Bonn1997:

Bonn - if I ruled the world Bill Bradley would own the Knicks and Bernard King would be the General Manager, but...sad to say... it ain't gunna happen.

If I could, I would have a long time ago. As a die-hard fan, I have too strong an emotional connection with the Knicks to root for another team. I tried rooting for the Raptors when I lived in Canada but it was pointless. Wins just didn't give me anywhere near the satisfaction that Knick wins do (or at least did give me when we had a franchise that wasn't the laughingstock of the league).

Is it really hard to be a Raptor fan at this point?

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Bonn - if I ruled the world Bill Bradley would own the Knicks and Bernard King would be the General Manager, but...sad to say... it ain't gunna happen.

If I could, I would have a long time ago. As a die-hard fan, I have too strong an emotional connection with the Knicks to root for another team. I tried rooting for the Raptors when I lived in Canada but it was pointless. Wins just didn't give me anywhere near the satisfaction that Knick wins do (or at least did give me when we had a franchise that wasn't the laughingstock of the league).

Is it really hard to be a Raptor fan at this point?

If you spent the first 18 years of your life living in NY, it's hard to root for any other team. Also, all my friends would make fun of how awful the Knicks were. ("$100 mil buys you 25 to 30 wins!") Part of me wished their team could at least be equally bad, but that wish went down the drain obviously.

VMart - I wonder if those who are bleating to "blow it up" would have the seven years of patience required by the Chicago Bulls just to get back to the playoffs.

Seven years.

"Nah, we should blow it up (whatever "blow it up" means in actual administrative strategy or tactics?) and start from scratch"

yeah, that's the ticket

[Edited by - misterearl on 07-23-2007 3:54 PM]

Posted by misterearl:

VMart - I wonder if those who are bleating to "blow it up" would have the seven years of patience required by the Chicago Bulls just to get back to the playoffs.

Seven years.

"Nah, we should blow it up and start from scratch"

yeah, that's the ticket

the ticket is winning the lottery and finding that special player.

that's the real ticket.

and that's the bonafide way to compete for a title, and a way to win a title.

over the cap, under the cap...the only guaranteed bonafide ticket is drafting a great player and surrounding him with good talent.

considering isiah has only had 1 lottery pick in 3 non-playoff seasons, you can make a case that he is guaranteeing us to never compete for a title.

not whining about it, but have come to the realization that all title expectations/hopes really should be dropped by the fanbase in general and everyone should just take a sit back and watch approach. just hope the team wins some games in the process.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-23-2007 3:59 PM]

Posted by WOODMANnYk:

Yep, the key to winning a championship is to get that special player in the draft, in the Lottery!

As you can see, the last player we had that was special was Patrick Ewing.(franchise star)and you can see how we were dominate during most of the Ewing era. Only thing is the team did not get that championship.

Right now, this knicks team will not go anywhere. TrusT me!!! Alot of knicks fans have hope but for what? This Knicks team don't even have that special player(superstar)on this team

ASsiah continues to give away his #1 pick, trade for players who don't know anything about winning and blow up the payroll. Thats not the route to go if you're looking to compete for a championship some day.

[Edited by - woodmannyk on 23-07-2007 7:17 PM]

Yeah lottery is the way to go, but the Knicks always approched the lottery half azzed. They had a shot at Yao, LeBron, Melo, Wade, Bosh but they chose to play for a playoff push I remember calling on the boards for a tank and everyone was all pious and we should play for the playoffs. And they got screwed with a Nene and a draft day trade for a gimmpy player in Dice, and Sweetney a bust so far in his career. And Patrick Ewing wasn't the last lottery pick the Knicks had it was Kenny Walker after Patrick and he turned out to be stud for the Knicks. You know Isiah has added Curry, Zach and Crawford they are lottery picks of other teams thats all. But no one wants to acknowledge them as lottery picks here because the Knicks didn't pick them.

bobs I agree, but with Isiah as the GM and a moron owning the team and homers around the world believe Thomas' crapola of lies, it'll never happen.

Posted by MS:

What a stupid ****ing notion that you can't rebuild in NY, who ever said that, some reporter that doesn't work in this town.

As long as the effort is there and there is a plan in place that will turn the franchise in the right direction I think fans have all the patience in the world. I think fans get frustrated when the team makes the playoffs with a below .500 record and gets embarrassed in the playoffs and the owner raises tickets.

Isiah had a chance to rebuild taking a player like granger, bynum, greene and not signing overpriced veterans and making stupid deals.

The Knicks have been retooling or rebuilding since 01 and the team has gotten worse every year, right now we have a great collection of role playing talent, a bunch of overpriced babies, and guys that don't put forth the effort......

This team got boooed, because they were getting waxed to start games and not putting fourth the effort, you go out there like Lee and Balkman and you hit the boards play with effort you have the fans patience

The irony is that if the Knicks had done a genuine rebuilding effort over the the past six years or just over Isiah's tenure, they probably wouldn't have even had a lower winning percentage anyway!

It amazes me how impatient people are in NY. When Isiah came we were looking at YEARS before this team could be fully torn down and remade. All this nonsense about getting a high draft pick and that's the way to a championship is so overdone. The Spurs tanked and then lucked their way into drafting Duncan, what happened to the Celtics from that point on? How about the other perennial lottery teams that haven't sniffed the finals? So since Isiah has come on board we've had to endure 3.5 losing seasons. That's NOTHING compared to a real rebuild and with that rebuild you get ZERO guarantees that you'll get the finals better yet win one.

I think with the addition of Zach and having gotten rid of Francis this team will be much more solid 1-10 in the extended rotation. Steph, Q, Jared, Zach, Curry, Lee, Jamal, Balkman, Mardy & Nate is a very good group. I don't think we take a backseat to any of the teams in the East. Then when you look at the young talent we have coming up, it looks like we should be fine for a good long while.

So OK, since Isiah has taken over let's look at the studs that have come out in the draft? Now realize that there's no guarantee that we could get the top pick but let's look at the top 10 each of the last 3 seasons. I'll skip 2004 since we traded our #16 pick that year. I'll say that we could've taken Josh Smith that year if we had that pick. Good player, but not an Elite stud Franchise player.

2005
1. Bogut, 2. M. Williams, 3. D. Williams, 4. C. Paul, 5. Felton, 6. Webster, 7. Villanueva, 8. Frye, 9. Diogu, 10. Bynum

2006
1. Bargnani, 2. Aldridge, 3. Morrison, 4. Ty Thomas, 5. S. Williams, 6. Roy, 7. Foye, 8. Gay, 9. O'Bryant, 10. Sene

2007
1. Oden, 2. Durant, 3. Horford, 4. Conley, 5. Green, 6. Jianlian, 7. Brewer, 8. Wright, 9. Noah, 10. Hawes

Looking at these drafts I see some OK players and then 2 Franchise Studs in this last draft. I don't think we realistically can say that we could've had a Franchise stud the likes of a Lebron or D Wade. To me that's the kind of guy it would take to in a sense guarantee success via a rebuild. Outside of that you have the Chicago Bulls style of mixing a bunch of high quality guys, but no one guy that is an Elite player like LeBron, Wade or Oden. Someone you can just give the ball and point in a direction and he'll lead you to the promised land. No Shaq or Duncan until this year. I think Isiah has done the right thing for this team, despite the losing, which we would've had to endure with a rebuild anyway. Do I like it, no, but I do like the direction and talent we have and I believe we will win this year and should've started that process In LB's year.

Posted by nixluva:


2005
1. Bogut, 2. M. Williams, 3. D. Williams, 4. C. Paul, 5. Felton, 6. Webster, 7. Villanueva, 8. Frye, 9. Diogu, 10. Bynum

2006
1. Bargnani, 2. Aldridge, 3. Morrison, 4. Ty Thomas, 5. S. Williams, 6. Roy, 7. Foye, 8. Gay, 9. O'Bryant, 10. Sene

2007
1. Oden, 2. Durant, 3. Horford, 4. Conley, 5. Green, 6. Jianlian, 7. Brewer, 8. Wright, 9. Noah, 10. Hawes

Looking at these drafts I see some OK players and then 2 Franchise Studs in this last draft.

OK players? There are a lot of players listed there that are better than okay. And that's with the fact that 2006 was a weak draft.

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by nixluva:


2005
1. Bogut, 2. M. Williams, 3. D. Williams, 4. C. Paul, 5. Felton, 6. Webster, 7. Villanueva, 8. Frye, 9. Diogu, 10. Bynum

2006
1. Bargnani, 2. Aldridge, 3. Morrison, 4. Ty Thomas, 5. S. Williams, 6. Roy, 7. Foye, 8. Gay, 9. O'Bryant, 10. Sene

2007
1. Oden, 2. Durant, 3. Horford, 4. Conley, 5. Green, 6. Jianlian, 7. Brewer, 8. Wright, 9. Noah, 10. Hawes

Looking at these drafts I see some OK players and then 2 Franchise Studs in this last draft.

OK players? There are a lot of players listed there that are better than okay. And that's with the fact that 2006 was a weak draft.

Let's not get into symantics when describing what most of these players are really capable of. The point is that when it comes to the players listed there are only a few guys that are Franchise players that you can project to be on the level of LeBron, Kobe, TMac, Melo, Dirk, DWade or Duncan. Oden may be the only LOCK to be that kind of player. We didn't really miss anything so great that we would be certain to be better off having gone the route of a total rebuild.

In the meantime Isiah has done a very good job of getting good young players in the draft that will make up the bulk of this team going forward and trading for guys that can play in this league at a high level. This season will important in terms of the teams fortunes going forward. This team plays like it should and we're in no worse position than most of the teams that go with a full rebuild. We'll be a playoff team with it's best years still ahead of it. What can be wrong with that?

Even with that, I disagree with your assessment. I think there are certainly other players in these drafts who have a fair/decent shot of becoming "franchise" players. And to downplay Greg Oden is crazy... he's an absolute stud and would've changed this franchise.

Then to go from your statement that admitted that there were some franchise players in the past few drafts down to "we didn't miss anything great" is the kind of bridge that makes me blink and shrug when I read your posts. If Greg Oden, Kevin Durant, Andrea Bargnani, etc... aren't that great, then maybe we're watching different NBAs.

Youth is nice, and I like some of the youth Isiah has brought in. But unfortunately, championships are made around NBA franchise players... and we don't have one. So, while right now, we're building an interesting group of youth, we're building a group that does not have winning a championship as the focus. The team being put on the court is to be ultra-exciting (since every player Isiah is interested in has to have the word "athletic" attached), which the Knicks hope will put people in the seats. The team is also supposed to be a playoff team. The team is not currently constructed in such a way that an NBA title is possible. You are content with this. Others are not.

Posted by Solace:

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by nixluva:


2005
1. Bogut, 2. M. Williams, 3. D. Williams, 4. C. Paul, 5. Felton, 6. Webster, 7. Villanueva, 8. Frye, 9. Diogu, 10. Bynum

2006
1. Bargnani, 2. Aldridge, 3. Morrison, 4. Ty Thomas, 5. S. Williams, 6. Roy, 7. Foye, 8. Gay, 9. O'Bryant, 10. Sene

2007
1. Oden, 2. Durant, 3. Horford, 4. Conley, 5. Green, 6. Jianlian, 7. Brewer, 8. Wright, 9. Noah, 10. Hawes

Looking at these drafts I see some OK players and then 2 Franchise Studs in this last draft.

OK players? There are a lot of players listed there that are better than okay. And that's with the fact that 2006 was a weak draft.

Let's not get into symantics when describing what most of these players are really capable of. The point is that when it comes to the players listed there are only a few guys that are Franchise players that you can project to be on the level of LeBron, Kobe, TMac, Melo, Dirk, DWade or Duncan. Oden may be the only LOCK to be that kind of player. We didn't really miss anything so great that we would be certain to be better off having gone the route of a total rebuild.

In the meantime Isiah has done a very good job of getting good young players in the draft that will make up the bulk of this team going forward and trading for guys that can play in this league at a high level. This season will important in terms of the teams fortunes going forward. This team plays like it should and we're in no worse position than most of the teams that go with a full rebuild. We'll be a playoff team with it's best years still ahead of it. What can be wrong with that?

Even with that, I disagree with your assessment. I think there are certainly other players in these drafts who have a fair/decent shot of becoming "franchise" players. And to downplay Greg Oden is crazy... he's an absolute stud and would've changed this franchise.

Then to go from your statement that admitted that there were some franchise players in the past few drafts down to "we didn't miss anything great" is the kind of bridge that makes me blink and shrug when I read your posts. If Greg Oden, Kevin Durant, Andrea Bargnani, etc... aren't that great, then maybe we're watching different NBAs.

Youth is nice, and I like some of the youth Isiah has brought in. But unfortunately, championships are made around NBA franchise players... and we don't have one. So, while right now, we're building an interesting group of youth, we're building a group that does not have winning a championship as the focus. The team being put on the court is to be ultra-exciting (since every player Isiah is interested in has to have the word "athletic" attached), which the Knicks hope will put people in the seats. The team is also supposed to be a playoff team. The team is not currently constructed in such a way that an NBA title is possible. You are content with this. Others are not.

Solace I'm not disagreeing with you on Oden. I said he "may be the only lock" in this group. The chances of geting an Oden are slim and you need a lot of luck. At most you have a few others who truly stand out from the crowd and have the kind of singular impact that an elite player has. This is really what people mean when they talk about building thru the draft. We're not just talking about a player that can be a very good player in this league. We're talking about players that lift their teams to deep playoff runs every year.

In regards to the players we do have, I think we have managed to not only draft very good players but to add youing studs like Curry and Zach. Many here want to downgrade what kind of players these guys can be, but I think they are going to have a big impact on the success of this team. You say we're only setup for the playoffs but not an NBA Title. I don't think you're being fair to this team. We have yet to see how good some of these guys are gonna get. They don't all have to be Superstars in order for them to help us rise to the top of the East.

Just use your minds eye to look down the road and see us playing with guys like Chandler and Nichols in there? They already show the promise of being the kind of 2 way players with skill, size and athleiticism we need. Lee, Balk and Mardy are guys that already show they can help this team. Imagine them as they move along and improve. I don't think we take a back seat to any of the young teams in terms of depth and quality of talent.