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Swap Curry & Nate for Dalembert and Change...
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djsunyc
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7/12/2007  11:39 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Why are there so many threads started that bring up ideas for trading Curry? I just don't get it. Is having a shotblocker that big of a deal? I don't think so. It's not a primary reason why teams win. It's a nice asset to have, but let's not make it more important than it is. We stunk at blocking shots. The difference between us and the top team was 2.6 blocks a game. To me those 3 blocks aren't going to make that huge of an impact over the course of a season. It's just a very dramatic defensive play, but it's no more important than a steal, in fact steals probably effect the outcome much more, since I would guess that they lead more often to points or at least FGA's for your team. I'd prefer that we got more steals from our guards than blocked shots from our bigs.

Now I know that many will bring up the idea that the presence of a shotblocker who will deter penetrators is an area where you don't see the credit in the boxscore. Still when talking about actual blocks, I don't count that as a big deal. I just want to see this team defend better period. I don't care where the blocks come from. In my estimation we'll get more blocks from Balkman and Jared this year. I'm more interested in better team D. I love a good blocked shot as much as the next buy, but i'm not gonna send Curry away for some bum just cuz he can block a shot or two.

the title teams over the past 50 years have a defensive inside presence. this concept is about as written in stone as you can get.

we are going against conventional wisdom right now and hoping to just outscore teams down low. it may be good enough to get to the playoffs, it may be good enough to win a round or two (see suns and our guys are not as good as theirs), but if we really are trying to build towards a title, then we have to seriously upgrade the defense coming out of the 4/5 spot. there's no other way around it and that means moving zach or curry. it doesn't have to be this year, or next year, but one of them will eventually have to go.

is dalembert that guy? probably not but i have no idea.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-12-2007 11:41 PM]
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Michael6835
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7/12/2007  11:40 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Why are there so many threads started that bring up ideas for trading Curry? I just don't get it. Is having a shotblocker that big of a deal? I don't think so. It's not a primary reason why teams win. It's a nice asset to have, but let's not make it more important than it is. We stunk at blocking shots. The difference between us and the top team was 2.6 blocks a game. To me those 3 blocks aren't going to make that huge of an impact over the course of a season. It's just a very dramatic defensive play, but it's no more important than a steal, in fact steals probably effect the outcome much more, since I would guess that they lead more often to points or at least FGA's for your team. I'd prefer that we got more steals from our guards than blocked shots from our bigs.

Now I know that many will bring up the idea that the presence of a shotblocker who will deter penetrators is an area where you don't see the credit in the boxscore. Still when talking about actual blocks, I don't count that as a big deal. I just want to see this team defend better period. I don't care where the blocks come from. In my estimation we'll get more blocks from Balkman and Jared this year. I'm more interested in better team D. I love a good blocked shot as much as the next buy, but i'm not gonna send Curry away for some bum just cuz he can block a shot or two.

That's exactly what we get back. Two blocked shots per game, with no offense and barely any good D. It's not like he is Ben Wallace material, he is Sam D.

I agree, team D needs to improve and the players in the pain must contest shots along with the guards doing a better job on the perimeter.

I love the logic though, get a shot blocker, he'll change everything.
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bobs3304
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7/12/2007  11:43 PM
Posted by Michael6835:

My point was to just tell someone to go out and block shots, so sense in bringing in an over paid shot blocker expert.

you must really dislike eddy Curry to not see the value in having him. I guarantee that if IT lifts the no trade talk from Curry's name many teams will come knocking. It's funny, so many teams need a guy like Curry to put them over the top.


I see the value.

But it's retarded in my estimation to have 2 guys that duplicate the same plusses and minuses, especially when that minus includes defense.


Dalembert IS a feared shotblocker. Not a Zo, but still players are weary of him in the paint. He changes ALOT of shots. Yes, he's got a low IQ, and his ceiling on offense aint that high, but at the end of the day I want a balanced roster to compete in the East.


Post scoring is overrated by us b/c most of the good teams now rely on quickness rather than bruising.



Seriously tho, Mike --- imagine Balkman, Lee, and Dalembert in the game at the same time.


That's what trading Curry allows us to do, and at this point, no team is ever gonna give us equal value for Eddy. Let alone a star.


Strike while the irons hot!

DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
mikesknicks
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7/12/2007  11:45 PM
I say we TRADE Bob3304 for a real poster! Trade Curry for Stiff Dalembert please get a grip. Don't hate on Ecity punk.
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Michael6835
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7/12/2007  11:46 PM
Dude, read your own post. Balkman, Lee, Dalembert in the game at the same time. Great so we have great defense, but we can't score. Teams will load up in a zone so the guards can't penetrate and not one of them can shoot, they are all put back players. That surely is not the balance you are seeking is it ?
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mikesknicks
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7/12/2007  11:48 PM
I see the value.

But it's retarded in my estimation to have 2 guys that duplicate the same plusses and minuses, especially when that minus includes defense.


Dalembert IS a feared shotblocker. Not a Zo, but still players are weary of him in the paint. He changes ALOT of shots. Yes, he's got a low IQ, and his ceiling on offense aint that high, but at the end of the day I want a balanced roster to compete in the East.


Post scoring is overrated by us b/c most of the good teams now rely on quickness rather than bruising.

Seriously tho, Mike --- imagine Balkman, Lee, and Dalembert in the game at the same time.


That's what trading Curry allows us to do, and at this point, no team is ever gonna give us equal value for Eddy. Let alone a star.


Strike while the irons hot!

Yeah he did a lot for the 76er
In the Knick of time. Knickal for Your thoughts.
Michael6835
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7/12/2007  11:49 PM
Your right, no one is willing to take that chance on EC at the moment. Why because he still has some developing to do. My gripe is you want him gone fresh after a season in which he showed great promise to be a dominant guy. I don't understand the logic. A guy plays good, you hope he improves and comes back better, not trade him away so he can be better for the other team.
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bobs3304
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7/12/2007  11:58 PM
Posted by Michael6835:

Your right, no one is willing to take that chance on EC at the moment. Why because he still has some developing to do. My gripe is you want him gone fresh after a season in which he showed great promise to be a dominant guy. I don't understand the logic. A guy plays good, you hope he improves and comes back better, not trade him away so he can be better for the other team.

We can debate, but this MikesKnicks cat has got to go. What a waste of space, dude isn't even debating anymore, he's just calling me out or throwing out slurs.



Let me get to the whole point -- Sure there's not alot of scoring between Dally, Lee, and Balk, but we have MORE than enough backcourt scoring. Have you forgotten Marbury, Crawford, and Nate (if we keep him.... I'm down for just Curry & Jefferies for Dally and Ollie)?


DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
nixluva
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7/13/2007  12:42 AM
Let's be real folks. Championship teams have a LOT of things that they do well and yes they often have good shotblocking, but then that makes sense since most of those teams are good defensively. We can be good on D and also great on offense with our current team. We don't have to have great shotblocking, just more effort and awareness on D. The shotblocking is nice, but it's not even close to the most important aspect of good D.

It's the LAST RESORT on D. When everything else breaks down and a player has a good look at the hoop in point blank range then a shotblock is there to clean up the mistakes of the REST of the defense. GOOD D, means you limit those kinds of situations and i'm advocating that we look to have good D and not be so concerned about shotblocking. I'd like for the defense to funnel their man to Curry so that he is in better position to deter shots as opposed to guys just coming at him from all angles already with an advantage.

What we've needed was more guys being aware of their man and the ball and moving as a unit to close down penetration. It's not that we don't do it, but we tended to be inconsistent. We'd put together a late surge of great D and we'd go on a run to get back into the game, but then we'd miss assignments and fall back into our bad defensive ways. I'm looking for this team to be much better at playing D as a unit and if we can get Curry and Zach to buy into that, then we should be fine. I think Curry getting into better shape is gonna help him a LOT. I think if this guy is lighter he'll be able to move better and not be so clumsy when going to help on D. I think he'd be more confident that he can make the defensive play without fouling, which I think he's most worried about now.

bobs3304
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7/13/2007  12:51 AM
^ Lol, my man this team is never a champ contender.

Let's be real mang.


No superstar, no championship. The Pistons are the exception, not the rule.


The Knicks as currently constructed are a 40 win team max. We'll beat up on teams with bad defense, but we're still gonna lose more than half our games because we STILL don't shoot the 3, and STILL don't have athletic defenders.

That's where this league is headed -- quickness and shooting.


That is unless you have Tim Duncan or Shaq; then it's a different ballpark.


Curry getting lighter?

Yea I agree it'd HELP.....but Curry just isn't a shotblocker. Even Nene with all that weight off still barely blocks a shot a game. Curry will always be a decent man defender, but we really need an intimidator in the paint, and Sammy D is four times the intimidator Curry is.

Even if that's not saying much.

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 07-13-2007 12:53 AM]

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 07-13-2007 12:54 AM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
JohnWallace44
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7/13/2007  12:58 AM
Anyone remember how much Curry improved last year?

Anyone want to see what he does this year rather than shipping him out?

PS - Hunter is better than Dalembert and its a shame we didn't sign him instead of James.
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nixluva
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7/13/2007  1:13 AM
Posted by bobs3304:

^ Lol, my man this team is never a champ contender.

Let's be real mang.


No superstar, no championship. The Pistons are the exception, not the rule.


The Knicks as currently constructed are a 40 win team max. We'll beat up on teams with bad defense, but we're still gonna lose more than half our games because we STILL don't shoot the 3, and STILL don't have athletic defenders.

That's where this league is headed -- quickness and shooting.


That is unless you have Tim Duncan or Shaq; then it's a different ballpark.


Curry getting lighter?

Yea I agree it'd HELP.....but Curry just isn't a shotblocker. Even Nene with all that weight off still barely blocks a shot a game. Curry will always be a decent man defender, but we really need an intimidator in the paint, and Sammy D is four times the intimidator Curry is.

Even if that's not saying much.

So basically there's almost nothing this team could do that would convince you that we could have a contender unless we made a trade for a superstar. Now since there are only a handful of guys that have actually won titles in the last 10 years, that would seem to be a high standard to hold any team to. Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Wade vs. the Pistons Really good team approach.

Bobs, you're buggin man. Q, Steph, Jamal and Nate can shoot from 3. We may even see Nichols get into the act. I really don't get what you're point is about Superstars. Curry and Zach are actually two young guys that are VERY close to All Star level. They won't be superstars, but we actually don't have a shortage of talent on this team. We just need to bring it all together.

In the East, I don't see another team that is so vastly better than we are. You might think so, but I look around and see the Cavs as the top team who represented the East and they aren't that far out of reach.
It's just your bias for this group that won't allow you to see that we have just as much ability as any other team. You can see our young talent maturing and i'm telling you that you need to stop being so stuck in the past with this team and recognize the changes that are taking place. You're jaded and there are a lot of other guys like you. You can't see what's happening with this team and what's building right under you nose.
bobs3304
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7/13/2007  1:21 AM
Jamal - hovers around 35% from 3 his entire career.

Steph - the same.

Nate - I'll give you that, but he's also 5-7.

Q - shot 40% this season, let's see how long that lasts.



You're buggin man, we're one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league %-wise.


In the East, sure, we're good enouugh (MAYBE) to make the playoffs. Course that's not a given when your career collective playoff wins as a whole (I'm talking the whole roster AND Isiah Thomas the coach) is in the single digits.


(* Malik shouldn't count, he's barely in the rotation anymore. )


Moral of the story?


When you're full of losers.....you're gonna lose.


[Edited by - bobs3304 on 07-13-2007 01:45 AM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
newyorknewyork
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7/13/2007  1:29 AM
Defensive frontcourts win championships.

Either we need to build a defensive frontcourt around Curry. Or build a defensive frontcourt around Randolph.

Or in an unlikley senario Curry becomes a defensive anchor.

To add to that Isiah has to challenge Lee to become a good defensive player.

To be true contenders we need a defensive anchor, versitle forward who can guard SFs & PFs. A long forward or big guard who can guard G/Fs and cause trouble on the perimeter. As well as a superstar who makes everyone better. So unless Curry gets in shape and reaches his full potential on offense & defense with all his physical attributes. We are not contenders.

Out of that we only maybe have the big guard in Richardson & the perimeter defender in Balkman.
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Ira
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7/13/2007  5:11 AM
I'd like to see how the combination works before saying that it can't work. Both players have been double teamed a lot. Double teaming is going to get more difficult when you have two players who require it.

As far as defense is concerned, I believe it's important, but I don't believe in the importance of defensive specialists. While I wouldn't rule out trading Curry or Zach, I'd give it some time to see how it actually works.

Another point on this specific trade idea. Dalembert is a good player, but he's about as good as he's ever going to be. I don't see much room for improvement in his game. Curry surprised a lot of people by having his best season ever and may continue that improvement by raising other aspects of his game and becoming a more well rounded player. There's no guarantees of this. But I'd like to give it time, before giving up on Curry.
fishmike
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7/13/2007  7:55 AM
I would need a little more back, but I would strongly consider this.

Sam does put up 11 points on 54% shooting. He's a very average m2m defender, but obviously one of the better help defenders.

A frontline of Sam/Zach/Lee controls the boards on both ends of the floor, can score in the post, has size and isnt a defensive sieve.

I would VERY MUCH like to move Marbury and get Dre Miller back. You put a playmaking PG with his skills along with that frontcourt and you really have something.

To make that happen you need to get a 3rd team involved to take Marbury, but so long as you hang onto Lee and Balkman the other guys are expendable.
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nyk4ever
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7/13/2007  8:16 AM
I'd do this. Dalemebert is just as good defensively as Curry is offensively and that is the biggest hole that needs filling on this team and now with Zach here, it's not like we're losing our only low-post scorer. A front-line of Dalembert/Zach would just make this team FIT better.
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Bonn1997
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7/13/2007  10:05 AM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Bonn1997:

We would have essentially given up 2 lottery picks, 2 picks in the 30s, and 2 expiring contracts for Dalembert then. The trade does make sense, though. Any economist will tell you you can't make future decisions based on sunk costs. Guaranteed the team would win more games after doing this trade than if it didn't do the trade.

Bonn- he had philly sending us a top 5 protected pick back to us-

honestly, I think you could get more for curry- I've been lobbying for Dallas' Josh Howard-
I agree you could get more for him. Isiah inflated his stats and increased his trade value. Now is probably the best time to trade him but it won't happen anyway.
Silverfuel
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7/13/2007  10:15 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Bonn1997:

We would have essentially given up 2 lottery picks, 2 picks in the 30s, and 2 expiring contracts for Dalembert then. The trade does make sense, though. Any economist will tell you you can't make future decisions based on sunk costs. Guaranteed the team would win more games after doing this trade than if it didn't do the trade.

Bonn- he had philly sending us a top 5 protected pick back to us-

honestly, I think you could get more for curry- I've been lobbying for Dallas' Josh Howard-
I agree you could get more for him. Isiah inflated his stats and increased his trade value. Now is probably the best time to trade him but it won't happen anyway.
Isiah inflated his stats? Wtf does that mean?
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Bonn1997
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7/13/2007  10:26 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Bonn1997:

We would have essentially given up 2 lottery picks, 2 picks in the 30s, and 2 expiring contracts for Dalembert then. The trade does make sense, though. Any economist will tell you you can't make future decisions based on sunk costs. Guaranteed the team would win more games after doing this trade than if it didn't do the trade.

Bonn- he had philly sending us a top 5 protected pick back to us-

honestly, I think you could get more for curry- I've been lobbying for Dallas' Josh Howard-
I agree you could get more for him. Isiah inflated his stats and increased his trade value. Now is probably the best time to trade him but it won't happen anyway.
Isiah inflated his stats? Wtf does that mean?
I know you see Eddy as a franchise player and will disagree with this but I think that when you give 35 mpg to someone who is just a scoring specialist and a liability both on defense and when the ball isn't in his hands in single coverage on offense, you're inflating his stats (by playing him far more min than he should be playing).

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 07-13-2007 10:28 AM]
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