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After thinking about the trade for a few days--there is no doubt in my mind
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nyk4ever
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7/6/2007  11:11 AM
Briggs, I think you are right. I have never for a second thought that the Knicks were not getting the best of this deal talent-wise because they are. Lets just hope that Zach keeps his head where it should be and if he does, everything will work out great, offensively atleast

I think you are right about Zachs trade value as well. It's alot easier to package him, but thats as of right now. I think the only reason Isiah would be looking to deal Zach in the future is because there was an incident with him and if there is another incident with him I have a feeling that is going to really send his value southward. If he keeps his head straight though, his value will remain as it is now or better, which will only help us.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
AUTOADVERT
kam77
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7/6/2007  11:15 AM
But Kam, this team still doesn't have its Wade.

Neither did Miami when they were amassing the likes of Eddie Jones, Caron and Rasul Butler, Brian Grant, Lamar Odom... the Wade arrival made it easier to part with those guys but the strategy was in place before Wade.

Riley is on record saying the best way to go in the NBA if you don't have the BIG players is to get a lot of similar players who can play multiple positions 6'7 guys who are quick and athletic. Basically, guys who can play and who will be valuable to other teams someday.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
JohnWallace44
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7/6/2007  11:18 AM
historically speaking, it's tough to find a double post offense that works without defense to fall back on. sampson/hakeem...duncan/robinson...can anybody think of any more? i think eventually, this season will bring that to light and curry may be gone after next year (as zach is infinitely a much better player offensively).

Weren't the Lakers (Magic, Kareem before Magic could shoot) a double post team?
Celts and Spurs were as well, but I'll grant you that they had better post defenders.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
BasketballJones
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7/6/2007  11:19 AM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by RemBee76:

But Kam, this team still doesn't have its Wade.

DJ, not to speak for others who may have made comments about UK, but nothing I said is untrue, if controversial.

No one is talking about a "higher plane" of discussion, just some place where opposing opinions aren't shouted down by retorts that add little substance to the discussion and where posters aren't forced into a "homer" or "lover" camp (I don’t like the Randolph trade, am I still a homer?), where personal attacks are kept to a minimum (can’t speak for Chipstern of course), where things aren’t black and white but grey, where off-topic posts aren’t preceded by “O.T.” and simply, where the recent exchange on the thread that Misterearl initiated which had to be locked would never happen. Somewhere the prose and substance of discussion are at a different level. I know you recognize that, it’s why you used to participate in the Times.

And I know you get the “Cache” comment as well. I have yet to hear your “there’s only one way to build a team” concept challenged here as it was on the Times, no doubt because it was an opinion formed here and a consensus reached via the echo chamber of UK. Nothing wrong with that, so long as you know that it is an opinion that should be challenged.

My statements here were an invitation, maybe a clumsy one, but sincere nonetheless.

that's total bulls**t rembee. you don't recognize that misterearl brings every single bit of heat on himself? you don't recognize that his whole appoach is that of a provocateur who ends up . . . surprise! . . . provoking strong responses back at himself?

I wonder if the differing formats have something to do with it, since misterearl was apparently so beloved on the NY Times forum. Maybe his style came across less abrasive there.

https:// It's not so hard.
VDesai
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7/6/2007  11:25 AM
The think about Zach when you talk about his trade value, is that character really makes a difference on whether you can get something for him. If he comes to NY and even has a couple subpar years, but rehabilitates his character, than he's tradeable. But I mean, even if other teams were interested, all he brough back was Francis and Frye? For a 23 and 10 player you'd expect more than a grossly overpaid, fading former star, and a guy coming off a poor sophomore season.
kam77
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7/6/2007  11:25 AM
The TIMES was more of a so-called "homer" forum than UK. We had a few "Hatahs" we treated like most of you treat Misterearl. No sympathy for earl from me. He has abandoned the TIMES. That Mofo LIKES messing with you guys.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
BasketballJones
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7/6/2007  11:27 AM
Posted by kam77:

The TIMES was more of a so-called "homer" forum than UK. We had a few "Hatahs" we treated like most of you treat Misterearl. No sympathy for earl from me. He has abandoned the TIMES. That Mofo LIKES messing with you guys.

Yep.
https:// It's not so hard.
BlueSeats
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7/6/2007  11:33 AM
c'mon rembee, I still remember your grand re-arrival on this board. You came in shouting and pissing like you owned the place and were looking to fire the rest of us.

Maybe we can all adjust our games and be less argumentative and more conversational, but how about living to your own standards?
BasketballJones
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7/6/2007  11:35 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:

c'mon rembee, I still remember your grand re-arrival on this board. You came in shouting and pissing like you owned the place and were looking to fire the rest of us.

Maybe we can all adjust our games and be less argumentative and more conversational, but how about living to your own standards?

To be fair, he probably figured that's the only language we'd understand.
https:// It's not so hard.
RemBee76
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7/6/2007  11:48 AM
Kam, DJ was treated with respect on the Times even though some disagreed with the "hatah" premis of many of his posts. lesterdog is one of the princes of the kingdom. I used to have some good throwdowns with xenophon and ex.regis that rarely got personal. In fact, while Brown was coach we were about evenly divided on who deserved most of the blame for the 23 win season.

Blue, I was commenting on a post that was seriously positing that Zaza Pechulia was a better center than Curry. I think I gave that thread the respect it deserved. Still, I do regret that my attempts at humor were taken personally by some.

Nothing wrong with being argumentative or hard-edged (such as calling out straw men when you see them) but the substance has to be there. Speaking of which, I am threatening the substance of this thread, so I’ll sign off before it gets locked.





[Edited by - rembee76 on 07-06-2007 11:49 AM]
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
islesfan
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7/6/2007  12:05 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Marv:
you don't recognize that misterearl brings every single bit of heat on himself? you don't recognize that his whole appoach is that of a provocateur who ends up . . . surprise! . . . provoking strong responses back at himself?

I have yet to read a misterearl post that was about another poster, andn ot initially about basketball.

This is demonstrative of the problem here at UK...having an overall positive outlook on the Knicks is seen as being a "provocateur."

You guys are walking around with Staples "Easy" buttons just begging someone to pushe them, bring a little dissonance to the echo chamber here. What a provocation...someone is actually trying to make me think!

you're in denial baby. earl baits and then attacks at anybody who takes it. his approach is to insinuate when anyone disagrees and then hide behind cute phrases or disappear for a few days when called on it.

Damn, that's what he does? I had no idea. Now it's all starting to make sense.

So where is this elba? Do you think I'd be happy there?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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7/6/2007  12:08 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
historically speaking, it's tough to find a double post offense that works without defense to fall back on. sampson/hakeem...duncan/robinson...can anybody think of any more? i think eventually, this season will bring that to light and curry may be gone after next year (as zach is infinitely a much better player offensively).

Weren't the Lakers (Magic, Kareem before Magic could shoot) a double post team?
Celts and Spurs were as well, but I'll grant you that they had better post defenders.
All of those post guys were also great passers and incredibly smart players. Zach and Curry aren't either.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BlueSeats
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7/6/2007  1:45 PM
Posted by RemBee76:


Blue, I was commenting on a post that was seriously positing that Zaza Pechulia was a better center than Curry. I think I gave that thread the respect it deserved. Still, I do regret that my attempts at humor were taken personally by some.

Nothing wrong with being argumentative or hard-edged (such as calling out straw men when you see them) but the substance has to be there. Speaking of which, I am threatening the substance of this thread, so I’ll sign off before it gets locked.


None of it is a big deal in my book - we all get a bit smarmy from time to time, just as we all find our intentions misunderstood. In the end, the folks who like to mix it up seem to have a way of finding each other, and those who don't wont. I think there's room for a lot of different styles here.
kam77
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7/6/2007  2:04 PM
The lord made adam and eve, to live a happy life.

In the garden of Eden. But they disobey.

I want to know, why they sin? In the garden of Eden.

Its a devil-made affair, for woman is the root of all evil.

They stole the fruit of life and everyone of us is living in sin.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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7/6/2007  2:08 PM
oj was innocent.
Marv
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7/6/2007  4:12 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

oj was innocent.

that's right. and scooter libby's out looking for the real perjurors.
djsunyc
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7/6/2007  4:16 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by djsunyc:

oj was innocent.

that's right. and scooter libby's out looking for the real perjurors.

scooter libby? let's not bring up sh t from the 30's marv...not all of us have seen 2 world wars you know.
Marv
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7/6/2007  4:18 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by djsunyc:

oj was innocent.

that's right. and scooter libby's out looking for the real perjurors.

scooter libby? let's not bring up sh t from the 30's marv...not all of us have seen 2 world wars you know.
hey jimi. dj's a what???
s3231
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7/6/2007  6:19 PM
I wasn't too crazy about this trade when it was announced and I'm still conflicted as hell about it.

There is no question that we did great in terms of value.

However, the problem with our team collecting assets is that we aren't winning or at least getting to the playoffs at the same time. That is exactly why the Bulls' pieces are a hell of a lot more valuable than ours. The Bulls win so other GMs value the young players on that team a lot more.

After all, GMs have to win. They have to win to keep their jobs (yes, there are a few exceptions of course).

Consequently, when they trade their stars to rebuild or retool, they will always prefer talent from winning situations over young talent that hasn't won anything yet (less of a risk).

People keep bringing up the Heat/Shaq situation. Yes, the Heat did a good job of collecting talent to pull off the Shaq trade. However, it was that trip to the 2nd round of the playoffs that helped the most. Winning does great things for you.

Now, we have a ton of talent. The problem is that our top talent doesn't complement each other. Look at the teams in the East that made the playoffs last season.

1. Detroit
2. Cleveland
3. Toronto
4. Miami
5. Chicago
6. New Jersey
7. Washington
8. Orlando

I'm not trying to be pessimistic or anything, but there is a very realistic shot we don't make the playoffs next season. Orlando just got better with Rashard Lewis and they might get even better if they get Artest also.

Washington will be strong next season unless they get killed with injuries.

The Nets still have Carter, Jefferson, and Kidd with a small chance of trading for Jermaine O'Neal.

If that isn't enough, Boston will be a lot better next season with Ray Allen and a healthy roster. Like us, they will also be fighting for a playoff spot.


If we don't make the playoffs next season, we won't be able to just fix it by trading for a superstar. There wouldn't be a lot of interest in guys that couldn't help bring a team with this much talent to the playoffs, in the Eastern Conference on top of that.

I really do hope we play well next season and make the playoffs, but I'm just not convinced its going to happen.

Thats why we need to take a gamble on Artest if the price isn't too high (i.e. No trading Lee for Ronnie). At least he brings something to the table that we don't already have (perimeter defense) while improving our chances at the playoffs.

With that said, here is to hoping Isiah knows what he is doing.



[Edited by - s3231 on 07-06-2007 6:20 PM]
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
nixluva
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7/6/2007  6:53 PM
Zach has value and if he has indeed matured and this team wins a lot more games his value will only go up. He's technically at All Star level already. He just needs a prominant presence on a team that is winning. I think that there's little chance of this team not being right in the thick of things in the East. We have the talent in place to compete with any team in the East on a night to night basis. This team will come in with great confidence. They're a year older. They already know the system and I believe many of the guys were motivated to work on their games this summer.

What I'm anticipating is a boost from Zach's presence and with a bit of improved play all the way around from the returning players AND THE COACH! I believe he's gonna be better. Let's remember that Isiah has a lot to learn still as well. He didn't come in with a lot of coaching experience, just some talent for the job. I think he learned a lot from his mistakes last year. I'm not worried about Zach working out. I'd be much more worried about Artest. He's just got too many mental issues. I love his game, but I fear his attitude and ego. He's not a player that can be controlled. He's liable to do and say anything and unlike Steph who is also kind looney, Artest is more liable to say things damaging to team unity if he's not happy. I think we'd get enough out of a guy like G. Wallace, but without the high risk.

Besides we already have young players to develop at the SF spot and none of them seem to be a danger to the team. Why take on 2 risky players in the same offseason? I fear that the move may be too tempting for Isiah to resist.
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After thinking about the trade for a few days--there is no doubt in my mind
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