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misterearl
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If you had to choose who would you rather have on this team?
David Lee
Zach Randolph
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Vmart
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6/30/2007  4:23 PM
You have to go with Zach its a very easy decision. If you guys look at head to head games ZBo and other elite pfs you will see that Zach held his own against them. You can not say that Lee can hold his own against the likes of Brand, JO, KG, Amare, Duncan or anyone else. Lee is young and we won't know if he can match the offensive production of Zach highly unlikely though. Zach rebounds well and so does Lee but lets face the truth here how many time did Lee's man come running down to double team Curry or Balkman's man. Towards the end of the season Curry was seeing double and triple teams, zach will definitely make teams pay for leaving him open as he can shoot the rock and even put the ball on the floor.

[Edited by - Vmart on 06-30-2007 4:24 PM]
AUTOADVERT
misterearl
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6/30/2007  4:29 PM
Pharzeone - this ain't a popularity contest. The invitation is to contribute opinion based on basketball skill-sets, nothing more.

VMart - very well stated. You have earned the right to skip study hall and proceed directly to the gym where you can watch the girls volleyball team practice.

Mailk Rose just became a candidate for assistant coach.

Even though having four centers is a cushy luxury, either Cato or Jerome James will be next contestant on "Zeke's Price Is Right"

once a knick always a knick
VDesai
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6/30/2007  4:35 PM
Contracts are NOT irrelevent in teambuilding. And they will NEVER be irrelevent in the cap era.
arkrud
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6/30/2007  5:15 PM
Posted by Vmart:

You have to go with Zach its a very easy decision. If you guys look at head to head games ZBo and other elite pfs you will see that Zach held his own against them. You can not say that Lee can hold his own against the likes of Brand, JO, KG, Amare, Duncan or anyone else. Lee is young and we won't know if he can match the offensive production of Zach highly unlikely though. Zach rebounds well and so does Lee but lets face the truth here how many time did Lee's man come running down to double team Curry or Balkman's man. Towards the end of the season Curry was seeing double and triple teams, zach will definitely make teams pay for leaving him open as he can shoot the rock and even put the ball on the floor.

[Edited by - Vmart on 06-30-2007 4:24 PM]

All teams with good defense bringing doubles and triples after man get the ball
After Eddy is tripled in the post with the ball - how Zack will get the ball?
Eddy cannot pass out and if he will somehow give it to guards the oppnent will play man-to-man
Zach will just work around all this position.
Reverse is trye if Zach get the ball. He cannot path eather.
1 + 2 = 2 + 1
Simple math







"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
TheGame
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6/30/2007  5:17 PM
I like Lee and am glad IT traded away Frye and not him. However, there is no contest. Zack is a 23 pt, 10 rb scorer who can command a double team. He is a solid rebounder, decent passer, and above average scorer. Lee is a good player, But he is not a good defender or jumpshooter. Ignoring the character and salary issues, it would have to be Zack. I cannot wait to see this team next year.
Trust the Process
BlueSeats
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6/30/2007  5:28 PM
Posted by Vmart:

You have to go with Zach its a very easy decision. If you guys look at head to head games ZBo and other elite pfs you will see that Zach held his own against them. You can not say that Lee can hold his own against the likes of Brand, JO, KG, Amare, Duncan or anyone else. Lee is young and we won't know if he can match the offensive production of Zach highly unlikely though. Zach rebounds well and so does Lee but lets face the truth here how many time did Lee's man come running down to double team Curry or Balkman's man. Towards the end of the season Curry was seeing double and triple teams, zach will definitely make teams pay for leaving him open as he can shoot the rock and even put the ball on the floor.

[Edited by - Vmart on 06-30-2007 4:24 PM]


basketball shouldn't be considered a series of simultaneous 1-on-1 games. When it is you have havoc.

The knicks did need to add scoring at the SF or PF position, but they also needed defense at those positions too, and I personally felt, all facets considered, our net deficits were found in Frye and Jeffries, not Lee.

Basketball IQ (a term misterearl loathes to apply to black players, while he doesn't mind applying it to fans of the game, as we see here) was also a problem for us and I felt Lee distinguished himself as one of our quicker thinkers and more intuitive players. If Randolph can bring that to the game to similar degree (perhaps in the same way LJ transformed his game to fit this team and his evolving physical deficiencies) only then will I consider it a net upgrade.

But if it's every man for himself out there trying to outscore his positional opponent so as to look good in comparisons we may effectively be set back as a team.

----

I know you'll deduct points for bringing bball IQ into the equation, but how do you grade me misterearl?
crzymdups
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6/30/2007  5:43 PM
http://www.82games.com/0607/06NYK10A.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0607/06POR12A.HTM

Lee has a better plus/minus and better defensive stats and better rebounding stats and better inside scoring numbers.

I think Lee and Randolph could actually compliment each other. it makes no sense to choose one or the other. Randolph and Curry on the other hand...
¿ △ ?
Vmart
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6/30/2007  10:17 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Vmart:

You have to go with Zach its a very easy decision. If you guys look at head to head games ZBo and other elite pfs you will see that Zach held his own against them. You can not say that Lee can hold his own against the likes of Brand, JO, KG, Amare, Duncan or anyone else. Lee is young and we won't know if he can match the offensive production of Zach highly unlikely though. Zach rebounds well and so does Lee but lets face the truth here how many time did Lee's man come running down to double team Curry or Balkman's man. Towards the end of the season Curry was seeing double and triple teams, zach will definitely make teams pay for leaving him open as he can shoot the rock and even put the ball on the floor.

[Edited by - Vmart on 06-30-2007 4:24 PM]


basketball shouldn't be considered a series of simultaneous 1-on-1 games. When it is you have havoc.

The knicks did need to add scoring at the SF or PF position, but they also needed defense at those positions too, and I personally felt, all facets considered, our net deficits were found in Frye and Jeffries, not Lee.

Basketball IQ (a term misterearl loathes to apply to black players, while he doesn't mind applying it to fans of the game, as we see here) was also a problem for us and I felt Lee distinguished himself as one of our quicker thinkers and more intuitive players. If Randolph can bring that to the game to similar degree (perhaps in the same way LJ transformed his game to fit this team and his evolving physical deficiencies) only then will I consider it a net upgrade.

But if it's every man for himself out there trying to outscore his positional opponent so as to look good in comparisons we may effectively be set back as a team.

----

I know you'll deduct points for bringing bball IQ into the equation, but how do you grade me misterearl?


One of the ultimate winners in basketball Bill Russell said, a players goal should be try and out score his counter part on offense and defense or simply hold the opponent down but you must win your head to head matchups. It gives your team a better chance of winning the game. If all five positions think in that manner you have a greater chance of winning the game. This type of competition not only make a player work harder to win his match up but it also makes the player work harder on both ends of the court not just one end.
misterearl
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6/30/2007  10:18 PM
"I felt Lee distinguished himself as one of our quicker thinkers and more intuitive players.

BlueSeats - what measure did you use to determine that David Lee was a quick thinker?

SFX; Buzzer

point of clarification alert:

I despise the term basketball IQ across the board. Why? Beacuse it cannot be validated using any standard of measure.

Personally, for a rookie, I thought Mardy Collins displayed far more intuitive ability and intelligence as exhibited in his adaptation to the role of floor leader at the end of the season.

Collins' ability to learn on the fly and raise his level of play, which seemed to grow exponentially with his playing time, at the leadership position was a more positive sign of intelligence than David Lee in his sophomore season.

Hey, but Lee certainly impressed during all-star weekend.

but what do I know?
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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6/30/2007  10:19 PM
(and I love David Lee)
once a knick always a knick
Rich
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6/30/2007  10:27 PM
Ensure me that Randolph is going to get in the best shape of his life, that he is going to expend as much effort on the defensive end as he does on the offensive end, that he is going to have no problem settling for less shots if that is what Isiah asks, that he is going to tell the bad influences in his life that he will see them after he retires, that the reason that he had microfracture surgery will never resurface.

Then maybe I will change my mind.
misterearl
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6/30/2007  10:32 PM
Blueseats - you insist on misquoting me at every opportunity? Did I offend your sense of gramatical sensibility at some point?

where did I mention "basketball IQ" for fans in this thread?

even djsu has owned up to the fact that he is only human. No one owns the corner on intelligence.

I thought "basketball class for experts" would make you happy. I was sadly mistaken. I'll keep trying until I get it right.



one more thing...

lighten up dude.

it's only basketball.
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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6/30/2007  10:35 PM
Rich - ensure me that David Lee's leg is fully healed and I'll breathe much easier.

Ensure...I mean... insure...I mean... assure... me that the first double-double that Zach posts... you will cheer as loudly for him as you cheer for any other Knicks player... and I will insure that you are reassured of your change of mind.

of that I am sure
once a knick always a knick
Rich
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6/30/2007  10:50 PM
*refuses to use quote feature*

Resolving one variable is usually a lot more predictable than resolving five or six.
BasketballJones
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6/30/2007  11:05 PM
https:// It's not so hard.
BlueSeats
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6/30/2007  11:27 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Vmart:

You have to go with Zach its a very easy decision. If you guys look at head to head games ZBo and other elite pfs you will see that Zach held his own against them. You can not say that Lee can hold his own against the likes of Brand, JO, KG, Amare, Duncan or anyone else. Lee is young and we won't know if he can match the offensive production of Zach highly unlikely though. Zach rebounds well and so does Lee but lets face the truth here how many time did Lee's man come running down to double team Curry or Balkman's man. Towards the end of the season Curry was seeing double and triple teams, zach will definitely make teams pay for leaving him open as he can shoot the rock and even put the ball on the floor.

[Edited by - Vmart on 06-30-2007 4:24 PM]


basketball shouldn't be considered a series of simultaneous 1-on-1 games. When it is you have havoc.

The knicks did need to add scoring at the SF or PF position, but they also needed defense at those positions too, and I personally felt, all facets considered, our net deficits were found in Frye and Jeffries, not Lee.

Basketball IQ (a term misterearl loathes to apply to black players, while he doesn't mind applying it to fans of the game, as we see here) was also a problem for us and I felt Lee distinguished himself as one of our quicker thinkers and more intuitive players. If Randolph can bring that to the game to similar degree (perhaps in the same way LJ transformed his game to fit this team and his evolving physical deficiencies) only then will I consider it a net upgrade.

But if it's every man for himself out there trying to outscore his positional opponent so as to look good in comparisons we may effectively be set back as a team.

----

I know you'll deduct points for bringing bball IQ into the equation, but how do you grade me misterearl?


One of the ultimate winners in basketball Bill Russell said, a players goal should be try and out score his counter part on offense and defense or simply hold the opponent down but you must win your head to head matchups. It gives your team a better chance of winning the game. If all five positions think in that manner you have a greater chance of winning the game. This type of competition not only make a player work harder to win his match up but it also makes the player work harder on both ends of the court not just one end.


"It wasn't a matter of Wilt versus Russell with Bill. He would let Wilt score 50 if we won. The thing that was most important to him was championships, rings and winning," -- former teammate and Hall of Fame inductee, John “Hondo” Havlicek .
BlueSeats
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6/30/2007  11:48 PM
Posted by misterearl:

"I felt Lee distinguished himself as one of our quicker thinkers and more intuitive players.

BlueSeats - what measure did you use to determine that David Lee was a quick thinker?

SFX; Buzzer

point of clarification alert:

I despise the term basketball IQ across the board. Why? Beacuse it cannot be validated using any standard of measure.

This is a class for for experts. By what standard measure do you validate who they are?
Personally, for a rookie, I thought Mardy Collins displayed far more intuitive ability and intelligence as exhibited in his adaptation to the role of floor leader at the end of the season.

Collins' ability to learn on the fly and raise his level of play, which seemed to grow exponentially with his playing time, at the leadership position was a more positive sign of intelligence than David Lee in his sophomore season.

Hey, but Lee certainly impressed during all-star weekend.

but what do I know?


See, you feel no compunction to praise the intuitive ability or intelligence of a black player, you only cast dispersions on the notions when whites do it for Lee, or against as black, because you choose to believe it is in every white person's heart to belittle blacks intelligence and bolster that of their own race. If you could let go of that insecurity (which is really racist at heart, ie, "all white's think the same way," which isn't that different from a false accusation like "all blacks are untrustworthy") we wouldn't see you behaving so hypocritically so many threads.

Yes, Collins and Balkman are two other players I felt showed good heads last year. I spoke specifically of Lee here because he and Zach were the topics of the this thread, which you started. However, you put Collins above Lee in the "intuitive ability and intelligence" department (erstwhile known colloquially as: bball IQ) for raising his game and showing leadership. I though Lee did the same and did so from a position not designated for that role, a role he had little former practice in, unlike a PG, which can require a greater stretch of one's character.
4949
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7/1/2007  12:17 AM
Why are we choosing? We already have them 'both' on our team!
I'll never trust this' team again.
technomaster
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7/1/2007  12:23 PM
That's right. We have 'em both. There's no doubt in my mind that we're a better team w/ Randolph than with Frye/Francis. The other players we got in the trade (save perhaps Nichols) are pretty much throwaways on our roster.

If it came down to it that I had to choose only 1, I'd go with Randolph. Why? A year out of microfracture surgery, he raised his game, putting up the best numbers of his career more or less across the board by far at age 25. He averaged a reasonable 2+ apg as a big man. Not outstanding, but he's improved in that regard.

He's a flat out scorer/rebounder, capable of carrying the offensive load over the course of a season.

David Lee is one of my favorite players, but he's not a #1 or #2-type scoring option. He's a dunker/finisher who provides serious garbage points. He doesn't draw double-teams. Can he develop into this type of player? Maybe. His main strength is that he's a skilled energy player - he does what Verajao does w/o looking uncoordinated.

Randolph could make the all-star team as the best player on his team - he's that good. On the other hand, David Lee would have to make the all-star team as a great supporting player on a great team.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
arkrud
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7/1/2007  1:05 PM
Posted by technomaster:

That's right. We have 'em both. There's no doubt in my mind that we're a better team w/ Randolph than with Frye/Francis. The other players we got in the trade (save perhaps Nichols) are pretty much throwaways on our roster.

If it came down to it that I had to choose only 1, I'd go with Randolph. Why? A year out of microfracture surgery, he raised his game, putting up the best numbers of his career more or less across the board by far at age 25. He averaged a reasonable 2+ apg as a big man. Not outstanding, but he's improved in that regard.

He's a flat out scorer/rebounder, capable of carrying the offensive load over the course of a season.

David Lee is one of my favorite players, but he's not a #1 or #2-type scoring option. He's a dunker/finisher who provides serious garbage points. He doesn't draw double-teams. Can he develop into this type of player? Maybe. His main strength is that he's a skilled energy player - he does what Verajao does w/o looking uncoordinated.

Randolph could make the all-star team as the best player on his team - he's that good. On the other hand, David Lee would have to make the all-star team as a great supporting player on a great team.

So actually you are saying Zach is better for us because we are crappy team and Lee is vaste of life for crappy team. I kind of agree.
Lee is a keeper if we are building great team and Zach is a vaste in this case.
Cannot agree more.
Speaking about the leadeship - nobody but IT wil be allowed to be a leader on this team.
he is the God and he is the Propet.
so the only thing we can do is pray...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
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