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Isiahs plan
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RemBee76
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6/1/2007  4:10 PM
Posted by Elite:

i was also wondering would we have to resign nate-lee-frye and give them more money soon? wouldent that effect all this

Yes, but not by much. All three are eligible for Qualifying Offers by the end of the 2008-2009 season. Right now, their deals account for roughly $10 million of the $41 million we have on the books in 2009. Let’s say, just in this scenario, that we allow another team to exceed Nate's offer. Subtract $3 million from that. Lets say (hope) that Frye is still here and has proven his worth, earning a contract that starts at $7 million per. Add $3 million. David Lee has become an all-star and demands a long-term deal starting at $10 million. Add $7 million. So the $10 million we have on the books for these guys becomes 17, meaning we are in the neighborhood of $48 million total salary.

Lets say we don't add any more MLE contracts if we don't also make a trade that sheds salary, and let’s sign two more first round rookie deals. By 2009 this years pick will be entering his third year earning $1.5 million, a higher pick entering his second year will be earning the same, so lets say add $3 million for the two. For giggles lets give Randolph Morris a $2 million deal. All this equals a grand total of, conservatively, $53 million on the books in 2009-2010; more likely something closer to $50 mill.

Now, since 2000 the salary cap has gone up, on average, by $2.8 million per year. In 06-07 it was at $53 million, so let’s say in 09-10 it’s at $61 million. This means we will be roughly $8-11 million under the cap, this without making any salary shedding deals.

Is that WAY under? No, but you only have to be under to make a trade where the salaries don't match, and this will be how a Kobe or a LBJ will be acquired. To make things more interesting, Quentin Richardson's and Jerome James' deals will be ending contracts totaling $16 million. So we will have plenty of options to sign a big free-agent, even with Jerome James, Jared Jeffries and after Steve Francis is just a bad memory.

Now, is all this the plan? No idea. I think it’s more likely we try to add a Rashard Lewis-like contract putting us at the cap or a bit above. But there are currently only two teams below the salary cap, only one of them WAY under. Does this mean only one team is a player in the free-agent market?

Dink aboud tit.

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Solace
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6/1/2007  4:32 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by Panos:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by djsunyc:

i wonder where jeffries 5 year $30 mil deal fit into the "we don't need ot do anything to set ourselves back" mantra.

Well did that set the team back in terms of their cap situation? It doesn't appear so, if they're due to drop about 46 mil when Steph, Steve and Rose drop off. Is Jared's money really a problem for the cap? 6 mil may be too much for Jared, but in terms of an NBA salary, it's not a lot.

DJ i've got to pull you away from the dark side. I sense that you've been sliding ever closer to that scary place There are better days ahead.

Of course it set it back. Every dollar spent on some loser like Jeffries is a dollar you can't spend on someone who deserves it. And Jeffries $5MM is a significant amount of money that could have an impact on what options come available. Once in a while you can try to be objective, instead of being so predictable.


He's incapable, simply his biggest challenge in life he's yet to conquer.

PLEASE! The question had nothing to do with the players value and everything to do with our ability to get under the cap. If I was asked whether I like the Jeffries deal for this team that would be a different question. Let's try to keep our points in synch. You guys love to try and paint me a certain way, but if you're going to do that at least get the point right!

When we got Jared we all knew that he wasn't a player that you add for his production. He's never put up great numbers. The point of adding him was supposed to be to give us a guy that can defend and move the ball. He had a rough 1st season, but that doesn't mean he can't play better. I hated the way he played this year. I also hated the way Frye played. I expected MUCH MORE from both. Perhaps we'll get more from them this year. Neither player is likely to cause us any problem in being players in the FA market in 2 years tho. SO WHAT'S YOUR DAMN POINT?

You do understand that it's not just a matter of "being under the cap" but being WAY under the cap, in order to sign on of those premier free agents that you think your Master is looking at.

Because Isiah, in his grand wisdom, decided that these stiffs needed to be locked up for Max money at 5 years each, they needlessly take up cap space that will prevent the Knicks from being WAY under the cap.



His essays are comical to read at best. I would be very tired of tripping over myself posting here defending I SAY UGH but then again when you're related to him what can you expect.

He's a tool. Nixtool. I've said this a billion times already. We're not getting a star because we won't be far enough under the cap to sign someone like Kobe in '08 - '09. Then there's the issue of resigning the kids if we're not under far enough until '09-'10. Everyone here wants to see Curry, Lee, Balkman, Collins and LeBron as our lineup. Yet, it will never happen since Lee will probably demand $10MM+ a year in free agency and we won't be far enough under the cap to sign both him and say LeBron. No planning by Isiah = Game over. Obviously LeBron, even without Lee, would be sweet... but that won't happen either. Why would he want to come to this terrible franchise?
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RemBee76
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6/1/2007  4:43 PM
Yet, it will never happen since Lee will probably demand $10MM+ a year in free agency and we won't be far enough under the cap to sign both him and say LeBron.

If you are going to pontificate on this board so loudly, know what you are talking about.

Again, 29 of 30 teams in this league are not WAY under the cap, 27 of the 30 aren't under at all. You don't have to be WAY under to be a player in the free-agent market, and even if you are JUST under, you can do a sign-and-trade without matching salaries.

And this is how LBJ will be signed if he doesn't say in Cleveland, because his list of teams will be short , and none of those teams will be able to sign him outright.

This is simply the way the NBA works under the CBA. Pay attention.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Solace
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6/1/2007  4:49 PM
Btw...
Isiahs plan

Two words that can never be placed next to each other without the words "lack of" in between.
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Solace
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6/1/2007  4:52 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Yet, it will never happen since Lee will probably demand $10MM+ a year in free agency and we won't be far enough under the cap to sign both him and say LeBron.

If you are going to pontificate on this board so loudly, know what you are talking about.

Again, 29 of 30 teams in this league are not WAY under the cap, 27 of the 30 aren't under at all. You don't have to be WAY under to be a player in the free-agent market, and even if you are JUST under, you can do a sign-and-trade without matching salaries.

And this is how LBJ will be signed if he doesn't say in Cleveland, because his list of teams will be short , and none of those teams will be able to sign him outright.

This is simply the way the NBA works under the CBA. Pay attention.

Wrong. The Cavs will have to VOLUNTARILY trade him under the scenario you speak of. If they did so, there'd be a lynch mob. Does it happen where a player FORCES a trade? Occasionally. Does it happen often? NO. The rules are specified to FORCE stars to stay where they are drafted. It will be tough to leave Cleveland if a team can't pay him outright. If LeBron does force a sign-and-trade, there are other teams with WAY better assets.

So, stop talking out of your ass. Other teams dip under the cap for a year or two to try and nab a star. Not all are successful, but that's certainly more successful than praying for a sign-and-trade.
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RemBee76
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6/1/2007  5:41 PM
Whose ass is doing the jabbering? Your assertion is that if you aren't WAY under the cap you CAN't sign a big free agent when nearly every major deal made in the last seven years contradicts that.

One exception I can think of was Nash, but that was Cuban's stupidity (Nash didn't neccessarily want to leave) and he was signed for a contract starting at 9 million per.

If LBJ wants to leave Cleveland you are talking $16-20 million per to start. Now ask yourself, How many teams are going to be able to do that outright, and say there are one or two (max), How many of those teams would be places James would want to play?

If James wants out, he is getting out, and the only way he would get his asking price on a team of his choice will be a sign-and-trade. The Cavs do that with a team even only slightly under the cap they don't have to take back a lot of salary while getting some useful pieces for re-starting.

Ain't rocket science, son.

[Edited by - rembee76 on 06-01-2007 5:50 PM]
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Solace
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6/1/2007  7:01 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Ain't rocket science, son.

Apparently it is, since such a brilliant man like yourself can't figure out the basics. Your assertions aren't supported by fact. But it's cool. I don't care. Flame away.

If you want to go by fact, the true fact is that your best chance of getting a franchise player is through the draft... but why should we worry about that since Isiah already traded away two top lottery picks. Yes, the Knicks are f'd in the a. Deal with it.
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nixluva
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6/1/2007  10:32 PM
Boy I can see that while I was out RemBee76 has been taking up the flag against the regular NAYSAYERS around. here.

Let's see TrueBlue called my post "comical" and Solace is calling me "Nixtool". All of this because I'm merely stating FACTS about the Knicks situation in the future.

TrueBlue's assertion is that i'm wrong cuz the Knicks would have to be "WAY" under the cap in order to be a player in the FA Market.

In 09/10 the Knicks have the option of extending Frye, Lee and Nate their Qualifying offers. They aren't under any obligation to do that for all of them. The thing is that the Knicks would be in a position to make a choice as to who they would want to keep and who to let go. They wouldn't be stuck in any way in terms of clearing cap space if they really wanted it. If they needed the cap space to bring in a bigtime FA, why wouldn't they let a role player or 2 go? By 09/10 the NBA salary cap could be about 58 mil and if the Knicks want to they can get under the cap by about $20 mil if they let Frye and Nate walk.

LeBron will make $15 mil in 09/10 his player option for 10/11 is $16 mil
D Wade will also make $15 mil in 09/10 and his player option is also $16 mil
Kobe will make $21 mil in 08/09 and his player option is $23 mil for 09/10

Despite Kobe making such a large amount of money a deal could be worked out. No team wants to just lose a player for nothing. Not when they can get something in return to help them rebuild. This is all just speculation, but it's not as improbable as some of you make it all sound.
Solace
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6/1/2007  11:27 PM
Kobe getting traded isn't that improbable. Kobe going to the Knicks is. We want to keep Curry and we have nothing to offer except not a single player who is a top 50 NBA player and a haven of players who are known for poor work ethic, poor attitude, and spitball fights.
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bobs3304
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6/2/2007  12:05 AM
isiah doesn't have a plan.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
islesfan
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6/2/2007  12:32 AM
Posted by bobs3304:

isiah doesn't have a plan.

Sure he does. It's called self preservation.

Gotta keep those fat Cablevision paychecks coming.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Michael6835
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6/2/2007  8:10 AM
you people are funny, the man finally starting acting with some fiscal responsibility and all of a sudden its not him. Or we start questioning everything prior. He signed a 3 year ext, so am I to understand that we will have 3 more years of IT bashing. Can you really argue with the idea that in 2 -3 years we will be under cap and in position to sign a big star outright with no sign and trade BS. Can you really argue that the team will not improve over the next 2 years, that IT will not add the little parts to make a team. It's silly, I know he is a good politician and he talks well for the press, but at this moment I am digging what he is saying. If he sticks to what he says is his goal, I am confidant we will again be a champion contender. The FA market in 2-3 years in loaded full of talent.
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nixluva
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6/2/2007  8:17 AM
All this talk about a plan is very nice. The thing is plans change when you least expect it. I'm sure that there have been many GM's who thought they had a plan and ended up having to change things. For one thing there's a degree of luck in just about any successful plan. How great of a plan did they have in PHX when they initially signed Steph to that huge extension then ended up trading him a few months later? If Isiah doesn't get the NY job there's no buyer for Steph and they're stuck with him for likely the duration of his contract. Then they got lucky that Dallas decided not to pay Nash. They had no way of knowing he'd be available back when they started this so called plan. It just worked out perfectly for them that's all. Now I give them credit for reacting quickly to the opportunities that presented themselves, but they got a real break that NY had no problem absorbing the huge money that Steph and Penny were making. You think that was Colangelo's plan all along?

The LA Clips, Hawks, Celts, Griz, T'Wolves, Sonics, Pacers & Kings likely all had plans too and it hasn't mattered much. I agree that it's important to have a basic plan but I think that those things are subject to a lot of change and you end up settling for less than you may have hoped for. Many plans start off great and then stall when the GM can't make that final move he needs. We'll see if Isiah is able to complete his plan and put a team together that fits perfectly and contends.
islesfan
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6/2/2007  1:22 PM
Posted by nixluva:

All this talk about a plan is very nice. The thing is plans change when you least expect it. I'm sure that there have been many GM's who thought they had a plan and ended up having to change things. For one thing there's a degree of luck in just about any successful plan. How great of a plan did they have in PHX when they initially signed Steph to that huge extension then ended up trading him a few months later? If Isiah doesn't get the NY job there's no buyer for Steph and they're stuck with him for likely the duration of his contract. Then they got lucky that Dallas decided not to pay Nash. They had no way of knowing he'd be available back when they started this so called plan. It just worked out perfectly for them that's all. Now I give them credit for reacting quickly to the opportunities that presented themselves, but they got a real break that NY had no problem absorbing the huge money that Steph and Penny were making. You think that was Colangelo's plan all along?

The LA Clips, Hawks, Celts, Griz, T'Wolves, Sonics, Pacers & Kings likely all had plans too and it hasn't mattered much. I agree that it's important to have a basic plan but I think that those things are subject to a lot of change and you end up settling for less than you may have hoped for. Many plans start off great and then stall when the GM can't make that final move he needs. We'll see if Isiah is able to complete his plan and put a team together that fits perfectly and contends.

It's amazing how many teams "plans" get a big boost from Isiah's incompetency as a GM.

Give us a break, Isiah's "plans" haven't stalled because he can't make that final move, they stall because they aren't real plans that he sticks to. His plan is to cater to which way the wind is blowing.

First it was about making a big splash with Marbury. He welcomed us to the playoffs <intense sarcasm> and then the next year it fizzled, so the next plan was to build around draft picks. Even though we were earlier told by Isiah that you can't build with draft picks.

The year after he decides that he needs to take a huge gamble, that costs them 2 lottery picks, for am overweight offensive center. Now we're really building around him and they'll sacrifice the lottery picks to make it work (Frye not being a good fit with Curry and Lee not able to start because they need to play 2 centers to do the job of one).

This year Isiah realizes that what he's put together isn't very good so he starts to preach patience and how getting under the cap is suddenly very important. So now he tells us that 3 years from now is the target for this team to improve by hoping to acquire a big time free agent. This after we've been told since day one that nobody comes to watch the salary cap and you can't rebuild in NY.

But nixluva will have us all believe that this was all Isiah's master plan all along.

That's one hell of a gimmick you got going there nixluva.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Solace
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6/2/2007  1:45 PM
Posted by islesfan:

That's one hell of a gimmick you got going there nixluva.

It's amusing. I have to give him credit. He always keeps going on and on but never lets on that HE KNOWS that he's full of it. I guess he's a politician IRL.
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TrueBlue
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6/2/2007  3:06 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by islesfan:

That's one hell of a gimmick you got going there nixluva.

It's amusing. I have to give him credit. He always keeps going on and on but never lets on that HE KNOWS that he's full of it. I guess he's a politician IRL.



He's By a Wide Margin the Most Irrational poster on this board.


Check out the Hypocrisy.......The Knicks supposedly have a brighter future than the Bulls and at the same time "HAVE A PLAN" "A VISION" to control the cap situation because the target is 2009-2011 to go after Kobe, Lebron, or Wade. In order for the Knicks to stick to "THE PLAN" they can't, this off season sign any big time FA/Rumored Player to be Traded(Rashard, Billups, Vince, Wallace, J.O., Gasol, Garnett, Ray Allen, Kidd, Randolph, Kobe, Amare, Marion, Camby) that jeopardize the cap, unless of course they undress the roster of it's most attractive pieces/assets(Jamal, Lee, Balkman, Frye, Malik) sans I guess Curry LOL! The team has already mentioned draft pick could very well be traded because said player won't crack the rotation, there have been mention the MLE won't be used, fiscal responsibility. I SAY UGH said the "same roster is highly likely to come back in tact". Grunwald said 4-5mos ago in "2yrs the team must have cap flexibility". All of this of course once again is because "THE PLAN" is for us to have a shot 3yrs from now for a big time player.

Meanwhile the Bulls don't have any cap problems, they are currently under the cap(if pick isn't exercised and they let Nocioni & Sweetney walk), they have assets to go after any of the above mentioned players right now without giving up too much depending on who they would target. They do however have almost every intention of using their #9 pick at this point and even if they should trade it, the return on it knowing Paxson, should be high(they could package it with Noch(S&T) and get something of value). Let's say #9 pick and Nocioni(S&T) for Bynum + filler. They could package that pick with any asset and get something of significant value. There have been grumblings that Paxson may be looking to deal Ben Gordon because he doesn't like his back court depth of Hinrich and Gordon in terms of defense, because they were exposed in the playoffs. He's on record for saying he wants Sefalosha to develop quickly. Let's say the Bulls trade Gordon 4( expring & Top 10 pick) don't do anything for the next 2-3yrs though besides sign Noch, use the pick(s), and extend Deng.... I'm including not doing anything such as exercising future picks or using exceptions(MLE, LLE, VME). Their cap situation will be very similar to the Knicks come 2009/2010.


So the Bulls get to tweak their roster some from now till 2009-2010 or 2011 but the Knicks can't tweak their roster in the same time frame and both teams stand to have a small or large shot to land KOME 2009-1010 or possibly even Lebron & Wade 2010-2011 the following yr after.


LOL @ LUVA
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newyorknewyork
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6/2/2007  4:02 PM
Isiah's plan was to put Marbury next to Houston and form a deadly backcourt. It may have not been a good plan because of Houston's injury and Marburys baggage, but that was his plan. I remember watching Dolan stating at Isiah Thomas press confrence that HE wants playoffs. Scott Layden just got fired because he wasn't willing to deal Milos or Lampe or any of his young players. So you think that before he hired Isiah Thomas that they didn't have talks that they wanted a stud that can make them a playoff contender. If that wasn't what Dolan wanted then why was Layden fired? With Marbury, Isiah Thomas was most likley giving in to the demands or promises that he gave Dolan before he was hired. He wanted Iverson first so he was looking for any star to make Knicks a playoff calibre team. He followed up Marbury by swapping KVH & Doleac for Tim Thomas & Muhammad. Thomas & Muhammad had more potential. They also had more value if traded seperatly than KVH & Doleac. On paper, Marbury-Houston-Thomas-KT-Muhammad. With lottery pick Sweetney as well as Mutombo off the bench. Looks like a playoff team. If Houston was fully healthy it definatly would have been. The next step was finding a stud big to play along side of Marbury & Houston. So now if Tim Thomas, KT & or Muhammad now all play well and make playoffs there value is now very high. So a possible package of TT & KT or KT & Muhammad for TT-KT-Muhammad might land a star big who wanted out could become available. Then all of a sudden Rasheed Wallace became avaiable and was traded to ATL who traded him to Detroit. Rasheed even begged Detroit not to trade for him because he wanted to sign for the mid level to play in NY. Then they won the championship.

So the plan in the begining was to put Marbury next to Houston. Trade KVH & Doleac for guys with potential like TT & Muhammad. Build up there value and find a star frontcourt player to put next to Marbury & Houston.

The plan never worked out though. Houston went down. They were never able to land that star big. And after Tim Thomas got hurt in the playoffs vs the Nets he sucked and lost all his value.

Say Houston recovers from Injury and we were able to land Rasheed for the mid level instead of being traded to Detroit where he won a championship. Say we were also able to repackage TT & KT or Muhammad for something else as well. Who knows.

The problem though was Thomas follow up moves to these road blocks. Like Jamal Crawford & Jerome James. Even Muhammad trade could be seen in a negative light even though we did land David Lee.

I wouldn't say its the plan or lack of plan that Isiah Thomas has failed so far at. I would say the execution(spell) of the plan has been his set back. Lack of patience.

If he has learned from all this though and is going to start taking the correct actions & proper execution for all his moves from now on. Then I could forgive him for a lot of the mistakes that he has made. Because he still has room to turn it around.
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6/2/2007  4:14 PM
Forget about a star player though. If we could just let contracts run out and keep our draft picks we would be in good shape by 08-09. We would have many young players that we could trade or resign. And we would have a couple of contracts about to expire to dangle.

As for the argument about added Lebron James it would take him to demand that he wants to go to NY. But say we were 10mil under. By that time Crawford would have like 1 or 2yrs left. You package Crawford or Jerome James or Jefferies who should all have close to expiring contracts. Package them with Frye or a draft pick to a team that can eat there salary the way Suns did with Utah for Tom Gugliotta. Or you could trade for someone who has an expiring in 08-09 for Frye or a draft pick packaged with Crawford, James or Jefferies and they would eat an extra yr or 2 of Crawford or James or Jefferies in order to land Fyre or an extra draft pick.

So if getting WAY under the cap in order to land James or someone was the plan it could be done as a long as they execute and follow through. Also David Lee will not demand 10+mil a yr when he hits free agency. Nobody would give him that much unless next yr he averages 15pts 10rebs as our starter with potential to do more like Boozer did. I would say he would demand a 4-5yr 7-8mil a yr with of course a 5-10% increase each yr. Possibly topping out at 10 his final yr.
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nixluva
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6/2/2007  4:37 PM
TrueBlue, Solace and Islesfan! The Larry, Moe and Curly of UK. I love how you guys twist everything to try to support your points and to make others look like they're being "irrational", "full of it" or that we have some kind of "gimmick". None of which is true, but as long as you all say it about me then it must be true. Just because i actually have a different point of view and i've defended that view with rational arguments, you can't come up with anything good without twisting the words or over simplifying my points.

Look, there have certainly been enough bad or questionable moves by Isiah over his tenure here to make any defense of what he's done a difficult job. You clowns have the easy job of just picking at everything without any sense of objectivity. Nothing is good in your eyes because Isiah did it. It's the worst kind of self hate that a fan can have. You see nothing good in the team and you can't imagine the team doing well. That's fine, but don't think for a 2nd that you are the rational ones in this game.

I'm not saying and have NEVER said that Isiah was perfect and that every move has been great. I don't even support everything he's done. You guys just ignore when I say that I don't like something or want to trade a player or if I feel he should do something different coaching wise. That's fine, but the next time any one of you says something positive about anything relating to this team will be the 1st time in who knows how long. That's not being objective at all. You are the ones with a Gimmick and you guys are the Jokes around here. No honest fan could bash his team as mercilessly as you and not be considered irrational. There are Celtic and Bulls fans that like the Knicks more than you guys. It's to the point where we can't even get you guys to HOPE that things work out better for the team you CLAIM to love. What's that about? What kind of fan wishes bad on there own team? But keep it up tho. At least I know who and what you guys are and when the team is winning I can be sure that you'll all remain just as negative towards Isiah and the team.
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6/2/2007  4:40 PM
I made one slight error I don't think the Bulls can package Nocioni with the #9 pick because Noch is a FA but they could with any of their other players under contract before and day of draft. They could trade Nocioni along with future pick if they wanted
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