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Mid 1st rd pick vs. each Knick
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Bonn1997
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5/18/2007  6:33 PM
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Which players on our roster do you value more than you'd value a mid 1st round pick? In other words, if there were no salary restrictions and we could trade a player for the 15th pick in this draft, which Knicks would you not trade and which would you trade? I'll start.

Curry: Trade (I know many will disagree, but there are too many versatile too way players available in the mid 1st rd to keep Curry)
Lee: Keep
Balkman: Keep
Crawford: Trade
Marbury: Trade
Francis: Trade
Nate: Trade
Collins: Trade
Q-Rich: Trade (only because of his injury history)
Jeffries: Trade
Frye: Trade
Cato: Trade
Rose: Trade
Morris: Trade
James: Trade

This is crazy.

LMAO. Dude wants a complete overhaul. But can't blame em.

Exactly. Briggs, nixluva, misterearl and others act like this was a team that won 110 games over the past two seasons when they've actually lost that number. And most of the players have made it to the playoffs on average about once every ten years that they've been in the league. Other than a few of the young players, this is a group of losers.
AUTOADVERT
anklebraker
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5/18/2007  7:00 PM


Curry: Keep
Lee: Keep
Balkman: Keep
Crawford: Trade
Marbury: Keep
Francis: Trade
Nate: Keep
Collins: Keep
Q-Rich: Keep
Jeffries: Trade
Frye: Trade
Cato: Trade
Rose: Keep
Morris: Keep
James: Trade


It's funny how this whole world is based on one dummy controlling another,and the leader dummy was chosen by a whole bunch of dummies.
Solace
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5/18/2007  8:34 PM
Curry: Trade for a top 6 lottery pick - mid-first rounder isn't enough
Lee: Keep
Balkman: Keep
Crawford: Keep -- won't get enough value in trade for picks
Marbury: Execute via guillotine -- if execution is illegal, then trade, just get this horse's ass off my team
Francis: Trade
Nate: Trade
Collins: Keep
Q-Rich: Trade - due to injury woes
Jeffries: Trade
Frye: Trade
Cato: Trade
Rose: Trade
Morris: Trade
James: Trade
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bonn1997
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5/18/2007  8:51 PM
Posted by Anji:
Posted by RemBee76:

Perfect thread to illustrate how drastically draft picks are over-rated here.
Pretty much, people going crazy over draft profiles need to look at what the write ups were on guys who were 15th picks like Steven Hunter, Jason Collier, Bostjan Nachbar, Al Jefferson, Antoine Wright, Cedric Simmons.... of which only one seems he could be a player.
You mentioned Steven Hunter. Did you know that Richard Jefferson was taken as a mid 1st rd pick in that same draft? And why are you mentioning Al Jefferson? He's an example that you *can* get a great player in the middle of the 1st round. I'm not sure how he helps your argument.

Bonn1997
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5/18/2007  8:55 PM
Crawford: Keep -- won't get enough value in trade for picks
This is the only one that surprises me in your list. I think anything valuable Crawford does is outweighed by his poor shot selection and poor defense. As might as well take a gamble on a draft pick. Anything you lose by not having Crawford is easily replaceable.
Collins: Keep
I thought a lot about this one. I might have made the wrong decision when I said "trade." We saw so little of him this year (thanks, Isiah) that it's really hard to know if the PGs who are typically available in the middle of 1st rounds are better than him or not.
MaTT4281
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5/18/2007  8:59 PM
You can say however many examples you want of scrubs taken early in the draft or how far star-calibur players have fallen. It shouldn't matter. The draft is always a bit of a gamble. It's not just about where you pick, it's a combination of other teams' decisions as well as knowing how to maximize it yourself.
Solace
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5/18/2007  9:04 PM
Craw is okay off the bench. He's not a bad player. If we got a player around 20, I don't think we'd get someone as good as Crawford.

As for Collins, I like what he brings to the team... he gives us something that all of our guards do the opposite of, so it's a nice fit, and something that would be hard to improve on.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
TemujinKnick
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5/18/2007  11:02 PM
Curry: Keep
Lee: Keep
Balkman: Keep
Crawford: Keep
Marbury: Keep
Francis: Trade
Nate: Trade
Collins: Keep
Q-Rich: Trade
Jeffries: Trade
Frye: Trade
Cato: Isn't signed.
Rose: Trade
Morris: Keep
James: Trade
nixluva
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5/18/2007  11:18 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Exactly. Briggs, nixluva, misterearl and others act like this was a team that won 110 games over the past two seasons when they've actually lost that number. And most of the players have made it to the playoffs on average about once every ten years that they've been in the league. Other than a few of the young players, this is a group of losers.

How are we acting like the team won 110 games? Just because we value more of the players we have, who have actually all come from good programs by the way, over some unknown quantity in the draft? The players we have that are young have shown that they CAN play in this league. We don't know anything about the guys in the draft other than a guess that they might be pretty good. Unless we're talking about players that are completely useless, it's hard to make a case for a #15 pick over any of our young players. Now some of the vets we have are bad players or are too old. But they don't really factor into what this team is going to be doing over the next few years so it's not that big of a deal.

By the way MOST of the players on this team are NEW to the team, having been added over the last 2 seasons. Only Steph, Craw and Malik have been here longer than that. We had 3 sophs and 2 rooks getting playing time this year. I would hope that as fans we could be a bit more patient with such young players. If it came down to it, a trade for a pick might be preferable, but I would get too carried away with this line of thinking. It's all hypothetical and not based on any kind of reality.

The idea of trading Curry for anyone in this draft other than Oden or Durant is just assinine. I mean come on now! For all of his faults, the guy is a few short steps away from being All Star caliber. Can we be just a little bit realistic. 2 more bounds, a block and an assist more per game and you're looking at a Knicks All Star representative.
Anji
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5/19/2007  10:55 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Anji:
Posted by RemBee76:

Perfect thread to illustrate how drastically draft picks are over-rated here.
Pretty much, people going crazy over draft profiles need to look at what the write ups were on guys who were 15th picks like Steven Hunter, Jason Collier, Bostjan Nachbar, Al Jefferson, Antoine Wright, Cedric Simmons.... of which only one seems he could be a player.
You mentioned Steven Hunter. Did you know that Richard Jefferson was taken as a mid 1st rd pick in that same draft? And why are you mentioning Al Jefferson? He's an example that you *can* get a great player in the middle of the 1st round. I'm not sure how he helps your argument.

I took the 6 years of picks at 15 and showed 1 really good prospect, if you don't understand the argument I'll summarizes it for ya. FOr every Jefferson there are 5 steven hunters, how is that a good odds???
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
4949
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5/19/2007  11:13 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Which players on our roster do you value more than you'd value a mid 1st round pick? In other words, let's say you were GM and could do whatever you wanted with the team in the long-run. So if there were no salary restrictions and we could trade each Knick for mid 1st rd picks, which Knicks would you not trade and which would you trade? I'll start.

Curry: Trade (I know many will disagree, but there are too many versatile too way players available in the mid 1st rd to keep Curry)
Lee: Keep
Balkman: Keep
Crawford: Trade
Marbury: Trade
Francis: Trade
Nate: Trade
Collins: Trade
Q-Rich: Trade (only because of his injury history)
Jeffries: Trade
Frye: Trade
Cato: Trade
Rose: Trade
Morris: Trade
James: Trade

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 05-18-2007 11:31 AM]

Keep Collins, Balkman and Lee. I think I'd be leaning more towards keeping Curry, and even more so, if were to get a good center.
I'll never trust this' team again.
Bonn1997
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5/19/2007  12:16 PM
Posted by Anji:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Anji:
Posted by RemBee76:

Perfect thread to illustrate how drastically draft picks are over-rated here.
Pretty much, people going crazy over draft profiles need to look at what the write ups were on guys who were 15th picks like Steven Hunter, Jason Collier, Bostjan Nachbar, Al Jefferson, Antoine Wright, Cedric Simmons.... of which only one seems he could be a player.
You mentioned Steven Hunter. Did you know that Richard Jefferson was taken as a mid 1st rd pick in that same draft? And why are you mentioning Al Jefferson? He's an example that you *can* get a great player in the middle of the 1st round. I'm not sure how he helps your argument.

I took the 6 years of picks at 15 and showed 1 really good prospect, if you don't understand the argument I'll summarizes it for ya. FOr every Jefferson there are 5 steven hunters, how is that a good odds???
One really good prospect?
Over the span of 1999 to 2005, you have Richard Jefferson, Al Jefferson, Danny Granger, Josh Smith, Troy Murphy, Zach Randolph, Correy Maggette, Ron Artest
Plus other guys still available after the mid first round include Michael Redd, David Lee, Jameer Nelson, Carlos Boozer, Boris Diaw, Josh Howard, Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Tony Parker, Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur, Andrei Kirilenko.

Which one of those eight mid 1st round picks and twenty total players are you count as "the one" good prospect?
MaTT4281
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5/19/2007  12:24 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Anji:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Anji:
Posted by RemBee76:

Perfect thread to illustrate how drastically draft picks are over-rated here.
Pretty much, people going crazy over draft profiles need to look at what the write ups were on guys who were 15th picks like Steven Hunter, Jason Collier, Bostjan Nachbar, Al Jefferson, Antoine Wright, Cedric Simmons.... of which only one seems he could be a player.
You mentioned Steven Hunter. Did you know that Richard Jefferson was taken as a mid 1st rd pick in that same draft? And why are you mentioning Al Jefferson? He's an example that you *can* get a great player in the middle of the 1st round. I'm not sure how he helps your argument.

I took the 6 years of picks at 15 and showed 1 really good prospect, if you don't understand the argument I'll summarizes it for ya. FOr every Jefferson there are 5 steven hunters, how is that a good odds???
One really good prospect?
Over the span of 1999 to 2005, you have Richard Jefferson, Al Jefferson, Danny Granger, Josh Smith, Troy Murphy, Zach Randolph, Correy Maggette, Ron Artest
Plus other guys still available after the mid first round include Michael Redd, David Lee, Jameer Nelson, Carlos Boozer, Boris Diaw, Josh Howard, Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Tony Parker, Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur, Andrei Kirilenko.

Which one of those eight mid 1st round picks and twenty total players are you count as "the one" good prospect?

So you mean that we're ok without our lottery pick because we can find a Gilber Arenas, Carlos Boozer, or Josh Howard late in the draft? Bonn, I didn't know you were so optimistic.
Bonn1997
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5/19/2007  1:43 PM
Posted by MaTT4281:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Anji:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Anji:
Posted by RemBee76:

Perfect thread to illustrate how drastically draft picks are over-rated here.
Pretty much, people going crazy over draft profiles need to look at what the write ups were on guys who were 15th picks like Steven Hunter, Jason Collier, Bostjan Nachbar, Al Jefferson, Antoine Wright, Cedric Simmons.... of which only one seems he could be a player.
You mentioned Steven Hunter. Did you know that Richard Jefferson was taken as a mid 1st rd pick in that same draft? And why are you mentioning Al Jefferson? He's an example that you *can* get a great player in the middle of the 1st round. I'm not sure how he helps your argument.

I took the 6 years of picks at 15 and showed 1 really good prospect, if you don't understand the argument I'll summarizes it for ya. FOr every Jefferson there are 5 steven hunters, how is that a good odds???
One really good prospect?
Over the span of 1999 to 2005, you have Richard Jefferson, Al Jefferson, Danny Granger, Josh Smith, Troy Murphy, Zach Randolph, Correy Maggette, Ron Artest
Plus other guys still available after the mid first round include Michael Redd, David Lee, Jameer Nelson, Carlos Boozer, Boris Diaw, Josh Howard, Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Tony Parker, Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur, Andrei Kirilenko.

Which one of those eight mid 1st round picks and twenty total players are you count as "the one" good prospect?

So you mean that we're ok without our lottery pick because we can find a Gilber Arenas, Carlos Boozer, or Josh Howard late in the draft? Bonn, I didn't know you were so optimistic.
We'd be ok if we had multiple draft picks (I wasn't talking about trading only *one* Knick for only *one* draft pick), reasonably priced players, a manageable payroll, and a promising player worth building around. We're 0 for 4 on those features, sadly
TMS
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5/21/2007  9:45 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Which players on our roster do you value more than you'd value a mid 1st round pick? In other words, let's say you were GM and could do whatever you wanted with the team in the long-run. So if there were no salary restrictions and we could trade each Knick for mid 1st rd picks, which Knicks would you not trade and which would you trade? I'll start.

Curry: Trade (I know many will disagree, but there are too many versatile too way players available in the mid 1st rd to keep Curry)
Lee: Keep
Balkman: Keep
Crawford: Trade
Marbury: Trade
Francis: Trade
Nate: Trade
Collins: Trade
Q-Rich: Trade (only because of his injury history)
Jeffries: Trade
Frye: Trade
Cato: Trade
Rose: Trade
Morris: Trade
James: Trade

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 05-18-2007 11:31 AM]

agree w/all except for Jamal, Curry & Mardy... those guys are easily better than mid 1st round level talent.

the other vets like Marbury & Francis i trade strictly to unload their contracts obviously... i'd trade them away for nothing just to unload their contracts.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Allanfan20
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5/22/2007  4:05 AM
Agreed with TMS about Marbury and Francis. If their not part of our future, might as well get something for them and just unload those bad contracts anyway, while we can.

Also, we gave away a crapload to get Curry, and now you, Bonn, think we need to get just a mid first round pick for him? No way Jose. We either have to get a real good piece for him, or ride and die with him and pray that he evolves into what he should be. Curry for a 20th pick is a ripoff against us, whether he's lazy and underachieving or not.

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
TheSage
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5/22/2007  7:33 AM
Curry: Keep-dont just look at his shortcomings-he's a dominant offensive player
Lee: Keep
Balkman: Keep
Crawford: keep-would be great #6 with rght combo starting
Marbury: Trade, give away, have kidnapped, donate to medical science
Francis: Trade
Nate: sell to the circus
Collins: keep-has shown more than expected
Q-Rich:keep-solid vet presence
Jeffries: Trade
Frye: keep-more value than mid 1st
Cato:package with Nate for the circus
Rose: keep-his expiring contract will be worth something
Morris: keep-still being breast fed
James:trade/buy out
Bonn1997
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5/22/2007  8:47 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Agreed with TMS about Marbury and Francis. If their not part of our future, might as well get something for them and just unload those bad contracts anyway, while we can.

Also, we gave away a crapload to get Curry, and now you, Bonn, think we need to get just a mid first round pick for him? No way Jose. We either have to get a real good piece for him, or ride and die with him and pray that he evolves into what he should be. Curry for a 20th pick is a ripoff against us, whether he's lazy and underachieving or not.
You have to understand the concept of sunk costs. You can't justify each transaction by what you gave up to get the components you're now offering. Sometimes you have to cut your losses if it means get something better than what you're giving up.
Bonn1997
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5/22/2007  8:50 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Allanfan20:

Agreed with TMS about Marbury and Francis. If their not part of our future, might as well get something for them and just unload those bad contracts anyway, while we can.

Also, we gave away a crapload to get Curry, and now you, Bonn, think we need to get just a mid first round pick for him? No way Jose. We either have to get a real good piece for him, or ride and die with him and pray that he evolves into what he should be. Curry for a 20th pick is a ripoff against us, whether he's lazy and underachieving or not.
You have to understand the concept of sunk costs. You can't justify each transaction by what you gave up to get the components you're now offering. Sometimes you have to cut your losses if it means get something better than what you're giving up.

Now if you're the GM, you could waste the next 3 years riding it out or you could tear it down, start over, and get a 3 year head start on real rebuilding. I really can't imagine any other team that would be dumb enough to build its franchise around a one dimensional, front-court player.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 05-22-2007 08:50 AM]
Mid 1st rd pick vs. each Knick

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