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Despite Popular Belief, Curry Doesn't Get Enough Touches
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bobs3304
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5/4/2007  6:52 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by BlueSeats:

Yeah, I made the point a few weeks ago that Eddy was our third leading shot taker when I questioned our style of play and nixluva defined us as a low post first team.

You can watch the games and see that the offenses 1st option is to go inside.


We dump it down low for Curry to score, or we run the motion offense, but we never run any plays from the post, which doesn't exctly help Eddy's assist numbers. And that's on isiah...



[Edited by - bobs3304 on 05-04-2007 7:00 PM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
AUTOADVERT
daddynel
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5/4/2007  7:21 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by daddynel:
Posted by BlueSeats:

And while Eddy's working on his jumper Marbury really needs to take some time off from his shoe tour to work on his post entry passes. The quality of Eddy's touches really needs to go up.
i really don't understand people's logic in thinking marbury is a bad interior passer. you want a bad one, look no further than francis, jeffries, and frye. obviously w/steph being the point guard, he's going to turn it over every now and again on the entry pass, but those guys?

problem w/marbury is he's trapped between the point and the shooting guard spot's. he's a shooting guard trapped in a point guard's body.

It's not "logic in thinking" - this isn't something I conjure up in the bathtub - it's what I see with my own eyes.

I think everyone who follows the team sees that Jamal, Lee and Malik to a better job of getting Eddy the ball in position to score, and they're not even point guards, or very good ones if they are. I have asserted on more than one occasion that Lee is our best PG, he's just not a very good one.
i just don't agree w/that. while i do agree jamal and malik are good post passers, i don't think steph is the worse. not with the guys i mentioned on the team.

BlueSeats
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5/4/2007  7:30 PM
Posted by daddynel:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by daddynel:
Posted by BlueSeats:

And while Eddy's working on his jumper Marbury really needs to take some time off from his shoe tour to work on his post entry passes. The quality of Eddy's touches really needs to go up.
i really don't understand people's logic in thinking marbury is a bad interior passer. you want a bad one, look no further than francis, jeffries, and frye. obviously w/steph being the point guard, he's going to turn it over every now and again on the entry pass, but those guys?

problem w/marbury is he's trapped between the point and the shooting guard spot's. he's a shooting guard trapped in a point guard's body.

It's not "logic in thinking" - this isn't something I conjure up in the bathtub - it's what I see with my own eyes.

I think everyone who follows the team sees that Jamal, Lee and Malik to a better job of getting Eddy the ball in position to score, and they're not even point guards, or very good ones if they are. I have asserted on more than one occasion that Lee is our best PG, he's just not a very good one.
i just don't agree w/that. while i do agree jamal and malik are good post passers, i don't think steph is the worse. not with the guys i mentioned on the team.

You're telling me Marbury does an adequate job feeding the post simply because there are some forwards on the team who do worse?

By that logic Curry does an adequate job rebounding because we have a couple of guards who do worse. And Frye is an adequate defender because Curry is worse.
TrueBlue
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5/4/2007  8:03 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by daddynel:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by daddynel:
Posted by BlueSeats:

And while Eddy's working on his jumper Marbury really needs to take some time off from his shoe tour to work on his post entry passes. The quality of Eddy's touches really needs to go up.
i really don't understand people's logic in thinking marbury is a bad interior passer. you want a bad one, look no further than francis, jeffries, and frye. obviously w/steph being the point guard, he's going to turn it over every now and again on the entry pass, but those guys?

problem w/marbury is he's trapped between the point and the shooting guard spot's. he's a shooting guard trapped in a point guard's body.

It's not "logic in thinking" - this isn't something I conjure up in the bathtub - it's what I see with my own eyes.

I think everyone who follows the team sees that Jamal, Lee and Malik to a better job of getting Eddy the ball in position to score, and they're not even point guards, or very good ones if they are. I have asserted on more than one occasion that Lee is our best PG, he's just not a very good one.
i just don't agree w/that. while i do agree jamal and malik are good post passers, i don't think steph is the worse. not with the guys i mentioned on the team.

You're telling me Marbury does an adequate job feeding the post simply because there are some forwards on the team who do worse?

By that logic Curry does an adequate job rebounding because we have a couple of guards who do worse. And Frye is an adequate defender because Curry is worse.


We may never recover from what Magoo did to this franchise can we set the bar any lower?


LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
daddynel
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5/4/2007  8:39 PM
steve francis is a forward??? nate robinson is a forward???

niether one of those guys could pass the ball any better if their defender got out of the way. don't act like all i pointed out were forwards. and i never said he WAS an adequate passer, i'm simply stating that their are "players" that are worse on the team but steph gets killed.
BlueSeats
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5/4/2007  10:33 PM
Posted by daddynel:

steve francis is a forward??? nate robinson is a forward???

niether one of those guys could pass the ball any better if their defender got out of the way. don't act like all i pointed out were forwards. and i never said he WAS an adequate passer, i'm simply stating that their are "players" that are worse on the team but steph gets killed.

Nate and Francis mostly play SG for us, and it's debatable that they're worse at feeding the post, and you did mention Frye and Jeffries, who are forwards.

But none of that is relevant, Marbury is our starting PG, it's no defense that there may be select players who are worse, it's his job to get the ball to Curry in good position. It's odd that you should feel sorry for him for being asked to do his job.

BlueSeats
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5/4/2007  10:43 PM
Daddy, what's funny about this conversation is that I've complained about Marbury's poor feeding of the post for years and his supporter's favorite refrain was that if he had a "real center" to pass to then I'd see what he can do.

Well, Curry's been here two years and his interior passing looks as bad as ever.

[Edited by - blueseats on 05-04-2007 10:51 PM]
daddynel
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5/5/2007  12:46 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by daddynel:

steve francis is a forward??? nate robinson is a forward???

niether one of those guys could pass the ball any better if their defender got out of the way. don't act like all i pointed out were forwards. and i never said he WAS an adequate passer, i'm simply stating that their are "players" that are worse on the team but steph gets killed.

Nate and Francis mostly play SG for us, and it's debatable that they're worse at feeding the post, and you did mention Frye and Jeffries, who are forwards.

But none of that is relevant, Marbury is our starting PG, it's no defense that there may be select players who are worse, it's his job to get the ball to Curry in good position. It's odd that you should feel sorry for him for being asked to do his job.
blue, if it's debatable that francis & nate are worse at post passing, then it's debatable that steph is worse than them right? even though steve & nate play sg does'nt make them sg's, they've both played point in thier carreers. plus whether their guards or shooting guards is irrelavant, they should still be able to make a post entry pass. i guess my main beef is steph is not the worse post passer or even our second or third worse, but he gets killed. if anybody deserves that treatment it's francis. blue, just do me a personal favor and tell me you hate marbury.
djsunyc
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5/5/2007  1:28 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Andrew:
I don't believe they do....unless the basket is made.

See, we need tomverve up in here.

My understanding is, if the shot goes up, whether its made or not, it counts as a FGA because if the basket is made it would count as a FGM.

But plenty of these fouls are before the shot release and so prevent the ball from going up. In those situations, wouldn't be fair for the FGA to be counted as there was never a chance for a FGM. But I don't know if this is actually the case.

if you are fouled, the only time a FGA is registered is if the shot is made. otherwise, the foul counts and no FGA is given to the player.
TheGame
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5/5/2007  1:28 PM
Posted by daddynel:
Posted by BlueSeats:

And while Eddy's working on his jumper Marbury really needs to take some time off from his shoe tour to work on his post entry passes. The quality of Eddy's touches really needs to go up.
i really don't understand people's logic in thinking marbury is a bad interior passer. you want a bad one, look no further than francis, jeffries, and frye. obviously w/steph being the point guard, he's going to turn it over every now and again on the entry pass, but those guys?

problem w/marbury is he's trapped between the point and the shooting guard spot's. he's a shooting guard trapped in a point guard's body.

Steph is a decent post entry passer but he often hesitates which allows the defense to recover. Francis and Nate are terrible. Crawford is better than those two and is the best at finding Curry in traffic on his drives. I think our best post entry passer overall might be Collins. He makes some rookie mistakes but he understands how to deliver a pass at the right angle.

[Edited by - thegame on 05-05-2007 1:30 PM]
Trust the Process
BRIGGS
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5/5/2007  1:34 PM
There is a point where the knicks--as is--cannot go inside to Curry anymore because of the double/triple team. Curry will get more touches when there is more space
RIP Crushalot😞
TheGame
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5/5/2007  1:36 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

There is a point where the knicks--as is--cannot go inside to Curry anymore because of the double/triple team. Curry will get more touches when there is more space

This is really problem. Until the Knicks learn to make teams pay for double teaming, Curry's touches and effectiveness will not increase. Curry needs to get better at passing out of the double team and we need our shooters to do something with the ball.

[Edited by - thegame on 05-05-2007 1:36 PM]

[Edited by - thegame on 05-05-2007 1:36 PM]
Trust the Process
nixluva
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5/5/2007  1:48 PM
Yoiu also have to look at who is defending the pass when guys like Lee and Malik are passing to Curry. Often they are somewhat open, cuz teams LEAVE them open due to not respecting their jumpers. Now you KNOW this is true, if you've ever watched a Knick game. Another thing is the position on the floor that they are often making that pass to Curry.

We often run a set with Steph, Curry and usually Q in the corner position and his man is cheating over towards Curry to make the entry pass more difficult. In those sets it's actually part of the play for Steph to feed it to Q, then make a cut. Q then would feed Curry and then cut along the baseline taking his man with him. Curry is supposed to then have the option to feed Q or Steph or take the shot. We all know that he most often looks to take the shot. The problem is that we often don't execute that play in a timely manner and the defense adjusts. It's important that Curry seals off his man and gives a good target, but he doesn't always do that. This leads to delays in feeding the ball and bad passes. Especially when it's Steph who is shorter than Jamal, Collins etc. Steph also makes the mistake of taking a poor angle from which to feed the post. It's a combination of mistakes that leads to the problem. I hope they can fix it, cuz that's going to be an integral part of what we do.

With Jamal and hopefully an improved Collins next year I have a good feeling about Curry being able to have a GREAT season.
daddynel
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5/5/2007  3:23 PM
good point nixluva. i've also taken that into consideration when i watch steve francis absolutely sucking! i mean when there's a clear out to feed eddy, and steve throws the ball away time after time. at least nate will fake like he's gonna shoot so his man does'nt cheat on defense.
BlueSeats
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5/5/2007  4:51 PM
Posted by daddynel:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by daddynel:

steve francis is a forward??? nate robinson is a forward???

niether one of those guys could pass the ball any better if their defender got out of the way. don't act like all i pointed out were forwards. and i never said he WAS an adequate passer, i'm simply stating that their are "players" that are worse on the team but steph gets killed.

Nate and Francis mostly play SG for us, and it's debatable that they're worse at feeding the post, and you did mention Frye and Jeffries, who are forwards.

But none of that is relevant, Marbury is our starting PG, it's no defense that there may be select players who are worse, it's his job to get the ball to Curry in good position. It's odd that you should feel sorry for him for being asked to do his job.
blue, if it's debatable that francis & nate are worse at post passing, then it's debatable that steph is worse than them right? even though steve & nate play sg does'nt make them sg's, they've both played point in thier carreers. plus whether their guards or shooting guards is irrelavant, they should still be able to make a post entry pass. i guess my main beef is steph is not the worse post passer or even our second or third worse, but he gets killed. if anybody deserves that treatment it's francis. blue, just do me a personal favor and tell me you hate marbury.

Of course I hate Marbury, and I've never lacked reason to, but that's beside the point. The point is that he's our starting PG and that job carries certain responsibilities he needs to better himself at. That's true whether he's the worst post passer or not.

Of course if you're more interested in defending his honor than seeing the Knicks improve you might see things otherwise.

BlueSeats
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5/5/2007  5:03 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Yoiu also have to look at who is defending the pass when guys like Lee and Malik are passing to Curry. Often they are somewhat open, cuz teams LEAVE them open due to not respecting their jumpers. Now you KNOW this is true, if you've ever watched a Knick game. Another thing is the position on the floor that they are often making that pass to Curry.

That's got little to do with it. If it were so simple than Jeffries and Balkman would benefit similarly but we don't see them as equal post passers. We also see Jamal as a better post feeder than Marbury when faced with the same defense.
We often run a set with Steph, Curry and usually Q in the corner position and his man is cheating over towards Curry to make the entry pass more difficult. In those sets it's actually part of the play for Steph to feed it to Q, then make a cut. Q then would feed Curry and then cut along the baseline taking his man with him. Curry is supposed to then have the option to feed Q or Steph or take the shot. We all know that he most often looks to take the shot. The problem is that we often don't execute that play in a timely manner and the defense adjusts. It's important that Curry seals off his man and gives a good target, but he doesn't always do that. This leads to delays in feeding the ball and bad passes. Especially when it's Steph who is shorter than Jamal, Collins etc. Steph also makes the mistake of taking a poor angle from which to feed the post. It's a combination of mistakes that leads to the problem. I hope they can fix it, cuz that's going to be an integral part of what we do.

With Jamal and hopefully an improved Collins next year I have a good feeling about Curry being able to have a GREAT season.

Now you're getting closer to the problem. Jamal is also better at Steph because he seems to be a better passer off the dribble. This may be due in part to better anticipation. He's also better at feeding Curry when he's facing the rim rather than backing down. And he's better at the high lob, which I've never seen Marbury execute well, even with olympic all-stars.

Jamal seems to use more of an over hand lob to feed Curry while Marbury seems to prefer more of a sidearm wrist pass. I think Jamal's passes arrive to Curry softer, higher and leading him to the rim, while Marbury's are lower and/or with his back to the basket.
SlimPack
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5/5/2007  5:10 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/nyk/stats


^ As you can clearly see, Curry is 3rd...that's right THIRD, in shot attempts on the team. Marbury and Crawford shoot more than a dominant post player who, despite his faults, shoots an extraordinary 57% from the field.


And QRichardson isn't far behind him either, and in many games actually shoots more than Eddy.


Point is let's compare Eddy's touches to Yao Ming:


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/hou/stats


That's right, he eclipses Curry by almost 5 shot attempts a game while only playing a couple minutes more a game. That's insane. Unlike the other leaders in FG% this year, Curry actually has game in the post, and he and Yao average the same # turnovers so can't use that as an excuse.


I mean how can you allow Jamal to get more touches shooting a poultry 40% FG and 32% from 3?


You could argue TMac doesn't shoot much better, but Crawford ain't no Tracy McGrady. Tracy is a DOMINANT perimeter force. Jamal isn't dominant.....he's just very streaky.

How many times have we seen Crawford throw up 35 points, and then 10 the next game? That's the difference between the stars and the pretenders, and which is why it was encouraging to see Curry do it consistently night in and night out for us last year.


How to reconcile this?


1.) Get Curry a jumpshot -- already in the process

2.) Isiah needs to decide what kind of offense we're running - motion or post

3.) Either move Marbury to SG and trade Crawford OR Move Crawford to 6th man, ORjust flat out trade Crawford.


[Edited by - bobs3304 on 05-04-2007 5:42 PM]


I dont know if curry really needs more touches. curry isnt the best player on this team and I dont know if things would be better if he got more touches considering the fact that he is still turnover prone and the fact that this team isn't built to support curry as a no. 1 option.

also the reason crawford takes more shots per game is because he shoots more than he should. I just wish Isiah would discourage that, but he doesn't seem to.

[Edited by - slimpack on 05-05-2007 5:13 PM]
bobs3304
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5/5/2007  5:46 PM
^ He's not the best player now.

But he is hte most dominant.


And he's only gonna get better.

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 05-05-2007 5:46 PM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
4949
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5/5/2007  6:27 PM
That's right, he eclipses Curry by almost 5 shot attempts a game while only playing a couple minutes more a game. That's insane. Unlike the other leaders in FG% this year, Curry actually has game in the post, and he and Yao average the same # turnovers so can't use that as an excuse.

Well' I may not be able to say anything about the turnovers, but Yao did' average 24.5 points a game (and here's a bonus - 11 boards) and that's with McGrady averaging 24.7 on the same team! Obviously Yao does a lot more with his time on the floor. Curry doesn't even average one block a game.

Curry is simply overrated by some here.





[Edited by - 4949 on 05-05-2007 6:28 PM]
I'll never trust this' team again.
bobs3304
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5/5/2007  7:16 PM
^ Yao averaged 9 boards a game.


Where do you get your stats from boy.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Despite Popular Belief, Curry Doesn't Get Enough Touches

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