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Your favorite memories from the 99 season
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BlueSeats
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5/4/2007  1:25 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

We cheer the young guys like Balkman, Collins and Lee for their efforts despite the losing because they aren't the guys shouldering the blame for those losses. That will change when they take on more regular roles on the team and the expectations of them will not only be that they fly around the court with "reckless abandon” but actually produce.

Of course the Garden has always appreciated a good show, this is why Sprewell did so well here. But this isn’t the same as leadership. Spree was no leader, nor Camby and no, neither was Childs. Johnson and Oak are examples of two guys who gave it their all on the court and stepped up to be examples for the team to follow.
Sit around and take cues from Marbury, if you can see under his towel? Eat brownies with Eddy over the summer? Talk bad about Brown and then play like a soft headed wuss, like Frye?

All this is just nonsense. Excepting Johnson, I think there is as much real leadership on this team as there was in ’99. Richardson and Rose are strong voices in the locker-room, and I see Marbury making the effort, talking to guys on the court and doing things to get them involved. And although I never tire of the “Eddy Curry is a fat ass” jokes (they really give me a good solid belly laugh every damn time) the reality is that at the end of the season he stepped forward and said that he wasn’t going to take a break this summer, that he was going to keep working on his conditioning and his game to turn things around, thus setting a positive example for his team mates.

I agree completely that this team has yet to find its identity. Over all, you get the sense that the team, as a unit, was much tougher this year than last, and that’s a good start. But a system/identity isn’t yet in place. That’s a tough thing to find because its one part the personnel you have, another part the personnel you are trying to get; it depends on the priorities your coach is putting forward, and also whatever the team absorbs from the city and fans they are playing in front of. When Riley came to New York he went from Showtime to a hard-nosed Slugfest that came from the personnel we had but also the city these guys were playing in.

I’d love for this unit to find some of the toughness on D those 90’s teams had, but they are also working on their own identity. Look at the guys we've picked up in the draft the last few years and you get a good idea of where we are trying to take this team. And yes, once they start winning, they'll have an identity New Yorkers can applaud and identify with.


This is shallow praise if every I heard some. First you knock the leadership of the '99 team, and then tell us this team has just as much. But in reality we don't, as that team still had veterans with integrity and in meaningful roles. Please don't compare Marbury and Eddy to Ewing and LJ. That's offensive. And when you need to bring up Malik, who's like the 4th man at his position, you might as well be talking about Herb's role here. Herb was Ewing's best friend. That was his role. But at least Herb was a significant player in his day, something Malik can't say for himself.

This team is so devoid of leadership it's frightening.
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RemBee76
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5/4/2007  1:48 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
This is shallow praise if every I heard some.

Maybe because it wasn't meant to be "praise" so much as a more honest appraisal of where this team is than the childish and fallacious short hands of "Marbury sits under his towel” and “Curry eats brownies."

This team doesn't have an LJ, I believe I said that. But this discussion began with some posters falling over themselves to praise Childs' leadership because he calmed LJ before a free-throw. I've seen Marbury do that and more...talking to Curry to remind him to focus after a missed free-throw, unselfishly feeding the hot hand, passing up an open lay-up to pass it back to Richardson in a game in which Q-Rich was struggling to get his offense going.

Too little too late? I can see where that would be coming from, but you can't tell me that this isn't setting a valuable example when starting to form that team identity we both agree is important. A more valuable example, certainly, than the one made by the guy still primarily known for starting a fist fight with Kobe Bryant.
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mythfaze
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5/4/2007  2:12 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by BlueSeats:
This is shallow praise if every I heard some.

Maybe because it wasn't meant to be "praise" so much as a more honest appraisal of where this team is than the childish and fallacious short hands of "Marbury sits under his towel” and “Curry eats brownies."

This team doesn't have an LJ, I believe I said that. But this discussion began with some posters falling over themselves to praise Childs' leadership because he calmed LJ before a free-throw. I've seen Marbury do that and more...talking to Curry to remind him to focus after a missed free-throw, unselfishly feeding the hot hand, passing up an open lay-up to pass it back to Richardson in a game in which Q-Rich was struggling to get his offense going.

Too little too late? I can see where that would be coming from, but you can't tell me that this isn't setting a valuable example when starting to form that team identity we both agree is important. A more valuable example, certainly, than the one made by the guy still primarily known for starting a fist fight with Kobe Bryant.

Yeah, gotta hate on those Knicks who got in fights in the 90s. Thank goodness they at least had a good example in LJ. He'd never do anything like that.

Nobody is saying Childs was the leader of all leaders. It was said that he and everyone on that team had leadership qualities.

While Marbury has been growing this year, and Q and Rose have always had leadership qualities, that's it. Rose is ineffective due to his lack of productivity, Q is usually out, and Marbury still is no leader, despite some of the changes he's made this year. Maybe he'll develop into one in the future, but he's not one yet.

Actually, I don't believe I even need to make a case for leadership in the '99 Knicks vs leadership in the '07 Knicks.

[Edited by - mythfaze on 05-04-2007 2:13 PM]
MS
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5/4/2007  2:20 PM
Wasn't really all that impressed with Van Gundy he really held spree and camby in check the entire season and as a result almost knocked us out of the playoffs entirely. That team was so good in so many areas and didn't really have one weakness at full stregnth.

Frontcourt: Ewing, Camby, Thomas, LJ, Dudley unreal
Swingmen: Houston, Spree
Defensive Guards: Childs and Ward

I have to say anytime Spree took the rim down was great to watch. Game 2 against the spurs he had a vicious two hander on the break and came up the court screaming. See a lot of that in Balkman
RemBee76
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5/4/2007  2:23 PM
Posted by mythfaze:
Nobody is saying Childs was the leader of all leaders. It was said that he and everyone on that team had leadership qualities.[Edited by - mythfaze on 05-04-2007 2:13 PM]

Yeah, I know what was said, but thanks for repeating it once more to make my point.

Everyone on that team had "leadership" qualities, defined by you as hustle on the court. So then why only bring up Richardson and Rose? Why does Lee not have Spree's "leadership" qualities, is it because he doesn't have the scowl? And what "leadership" did Camby bring to the team that Balkman does not, again using the definition from your previous post.

It’s about perception. A team has some success and all the qualities we've decided are needed for said success are there, we can see them. A team doesn't, and they are just a sorry lot of whiners.

Yeah, the '99 team was chock full of leaders. So where did they all go when LJ left and Jeff Van Gundy jumped ship? you gotta wonder...


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BlueSeats
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5/4/2007  2:35 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by BlueSeats:
This is shallow praise if every I heard some.

Maybe because it wasn't meant to be "praise" so much as a more honest appraisal of where this team is than the childish and fallacious short hands of "Marbury sits under his towel” and “Curry eats brownies."

"
You might not like that people make light of our troubles, but I don't think you can make an "honest appraisal of our situation without accounting for the realities at hand, and Marbury's leadership void and Eddy's known distaste for conditioning certainly fall under that rubric.
This team doesn't have an LJ, I believe I said that. But this discussion began with some posters falling over themselves to praise Childs' leadership because he calmed LJ before a free-throw. I've seen Marbury do that and more...talking to Curry to remind him to focus after a missed free-throw, unselfishly feeding the hot hand, passing up an open lay-up to pass it back to Richardson in a game in which Q-Rich was struggling to get his offense going.

Too little too late? I can see where that would be coming from, but you can't tell me that this isn't setting a valuable example when starting to form that team identity we both agree is important. A more valuable example, certainly, than the one made by the guy still primarily known for starting a fist fight with Kobe Bryant.

Again, it's just sad when we have to praise a guy for isolated incidents of communicating with teammates on the floor. If you want to say Childs was no better at it than Marbury, fine, but Marbury's role is so much larger here. Child's was a bit player, Marbury is the face of the franchise. That we have to equate Marbury to Childs, who didn't really work out here, is faint praise indeed.
mythfaze
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5/4/2007  2:37 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by mythfaze:
Nobody is saying Childs was the leader of all leaders. It was said that he and everyone on that team had leadership qualities.[Edited by - mythfaze on 05-04-2007 2:13 PM]

Yeah, I know what was said, but thanks for repeating it once more to make my point.

Everyone on that team had "leadership" qualities, defined by you as hustle on the court. So then why only bring up Richardson and Rose? Why does Lee not have Spree's "leadership" qualities, is it because he doesn't have the scowl? And what "leadership" did Camby bring to the team that Balkman does not, again using the definition from your previous post.

It’s about perception. A team has some success and all the qualities we've decided are needed for said success are there, we can see them. A team doesn't, and they are just a sorry lot of whiners.

Yeah, the '99 team was chock full of leaders. So where did they all go when LJ left and Jeff Van Gundy jumped ship? you gotta wonder...

No, not defined by me as hustle at all. I just mentioned how that team had heart and hustle. I also said Lee, Collins, Nate and Balkman hustle, and I'm not calling them leaders.

Lets see... Van Gundy left, LJ left, Ewing was gone and Childs was gone. Well that's where four of them went. KT and Ward were still there. Yes, you can have less success and still have leaders.
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5/4/2007  2:37 PM
The Camby dunk over Mutombo was one of my favorites. The four point play, the Houston shot. Just a great playoff run by a team that should've won a championship.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
BlueSeats
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5/4/2007  2:40 PM
How many teams in the league are in our position where we hope our kids can provide leadership for our veterans?

Mardy, Balkman and Lee can't grow up fast enough so they can pull Curry and Marbury like trailers. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

Talk about pressure.

[Edited by - blueseats on 05-04-2007 2:41 PM]
RemBee76
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5/4/2007  2:47 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
That we have to equate Marbury to Childs, who didn't really work out here, is faint praise indeed.

Point out where I equated the two. Come on, lets not waste time clarifying what we wrote to eachother. I believe I said Marbury's contribution to the emerging identity of this team was much greater, and I posted a few examples.

As for the realities at hand...I don't think Marbury's leadership was an issue last season. Nor do I think it germane to continue to harp on Curry's conditioning after he came in to camp in shape and averaged 35 mpg over 81 games. And again, in a discussion about leadership, why no mention of Curry channeling his dissatisfaction with the way the season closed to continuing his efforts in the Gym during the offseason? Is that not a reality you acknowledge? Or is it really that it doesn’t fit under your Curry As Fatty rubric?

Of course we can’t make direct comparisons to the ’99 end of an era to the ’07 (hopefully) start of one. I never meant to. I just disagree that there is something inherently “soft” or “leaderless” about this team that will prevent them from forming into a unit that is as tight and, god-willing, effective. I think its there, just some can’t see past the 33 wins.
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TrentTuckerFan
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5/4/2007  2:53 PM
One of my favorite highlights from the '99 season was the MSG crowd chanting "Jeff Van-Gundy!!!!!!!!"

The difference bewteen Van Gundy and Isiah is simply staggering. Couldn't be a wider gap.

Van Gundy would never call a losing team "the best 33 win team ever."

He would not settle for average.

He basically needed to take an 8th seed to the Finals to save his job

Nowadays, Isiah gets a contract extension for a 33-49 season.

JVG would have quit or fired himself before coaching a team with the highest payroll in the sport to a losing record in a terrible confernce.
RemBee76
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5/4/2007  2:55 PM
Posted by TrentTuckerFan:
JVG would have quit or fired himself before coaching a team with the highest payroll in the sport to a losing record in a terrible confernce.

Well, there is a bold prediction, seeing as he did just that.
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mythfaze
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5/4/2007  2:59 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by BlueSeats:
That we have to equate Marbury to Childs, who didn't really work out here, is faint praise indeed.

Point out where I equated the two. Come on, lets not waste time clarifying what we wrote to eachother. I believe I said Marbury's contribution to the emerging identity of this team was much greater, and I posted a few examples.

As for the realities at hand...I don't think Marbury's leadership was an issue last season. Nor do I think it germane to continue to harp on Curry's conditioning after he came in to camp in shape and averaged 35 mpg over 81 games. And again, in a discussion about leadership, why no mention of Curry channeling his dissatisfaction with the way the season closed to continuing his efforts in the Gym during the offseason? Is that not a reality you acknowledge? Or is it really that it doesn’t fit under your Curry As Fatty rubric?

Of course we can’t make direct comparisons to the ’99 end of an era to the ’07 (hopefully) start of one. I never meant to. I just disagree that there is something inherently “soft” or “leaderless” about this team that will prevent them from forming into a unit that is as tight and, god-willing, effective. I think its there, just some can’t see past the 33 wins.

For Curry to say he's going to work his butt off this off season, that's a good thing. (I'll also believe it when I see it. In the past he's taken out his frustration by getting new tattoos on his chest.) But that would be the first sign of leadership I've seen from him. Otherwise all I've see is a lack of effort on the defensive end and crying and whining when he didn't make the all star team and when somebody mentions IT might not be around in the future.

If he does buckle down this summer and get into good shape, that will be huge. For his confidence, for his ability and for the team.
mythfaze
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5/4/2007  3:03 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by TrentTuckerFan:
JVG would have quit or fired himself before coaching a team with the highest payroll in the sport to a losing record in a terrible confernce.

Well, there is a bold prediction, seeing as he did just that.

Zing! RemBee +1

Its not a good thing that he'd walk out and leave the team if they started performing badly. That's what we call a quitter.
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5/4/2007  3:06 PM

The L... and the 4pt play.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
RemBee76
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5/4/2007  3:23 PM
Myth, we agree generally on Curry. But I didn't hear Curry whine after he missed the all-star game, I heard him say that he would use that as motivation. And his threat to leave if Isiah was fired? Isn't that what stars (or leaders) do? I thought it reminiscent of Ewing, no? And if you recall Curry said he would work hard in the off-season last year before he did just that.

More than all of that, I liked how Curry started to demand the ball this year and voiced his displeasure with his team mates when he didn't get it. After a year when Curry would dominate a first quarter and then was forgotten about (by his team mates and his coach) it was great to see him take charge of the game plan. That’s leadership.

Maybe I'm just a positive guy, but lets talk about that for a bit before starting another 90 post thread on how he doesn't rebound enough.
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knixphan
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5/4/2007  3:30 PM
I'm with Mythfaze, That hustle, that reckless abandon... They all had it!

(*I guess Ewing and Houston had a different version, more stoic, but whatever)

Oh, and defense. I miss commitment to getting stops. Remember those?

And let's face it, sports is entertainment. Those guys had personalities you enjoyed watching. Even Spree. Even Childs (Take THAT, Kobe!) Especially JVG - anyone who remembers Gabe and the sweathogs knows how cool that kind of embattled, self-depricating coach-figure is...

Marbs isn't built for entertainment... Nate and Lee are camera-friendly, as well as Balk.

Now that Riles is an underdog again, let's bring him back!
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5/4/2007  4:10 PM
I have absolutely no problem with my best offensive player demanding the ball and getting angry with teammates taht didn't get it to him. That's what all good offensive players do. And if you play for me and shoot 55% from the floor on post up moves you should be demanding the ball. To me, that actually is a sign of leadership on Curry's part.

But the problem with Curry is simple. You can't be a leader and not be the hardest or at least one of the hardest working people on the team. And if someone tells me he's a hard worker, I'm going to puke. He has to show better effort on the defensive and rebounding areas of the game before he can really become a leader. And he must also keep himself in shape all year round so taht teammates and coaches don't forget about him/so he isn't out of shape and tired and frustrated when we need him most.
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BlueSeats
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5/4/2007  4:26 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by BlueSeats:
That we have to equate Marbury to Childs, who didn't really work out here, is faint praise indeed.

Point out where I equated the two. Come on, lets not waste time clarifying what we wrote to eachother. I believe I said Marbury's contribution to the emerging identity of this team was much greater, and I posted a few examples.

As for the realities at hand...I don't think Marbury's leadership was an issue last season. Nor do I think it germane to continue to harp on Curry's conditioning after he came in to camp in shape and averaged 35 mpg over 81 games. And again, in a discussion about leadership, why no mention of Curry channeling his dissatisfaction with the way the season closed to continuing his efforts in the Gym during the offseason? Is that not a reality you acknowledge? Or is it really that it doesn’t fit under your Curry As Fatty rubric?

Of course we can’t make direct comparisons to the ’99 end of an era to the ’07 (hopefully) start of one. I never meant to. I just disagree that there is something inherently “soft” or “leaderless” about this team that will prevent them from forming into a unit that is as tight and, god-willing, effective. I think its there, just some can’t see past the 33 wins.


It's not about the 33 wins, nor is it about '99. It's about the air of folly that surrounds this team, and the predictability of their shortcomings. Sure, each summer we get a new draft pick, the team looks good in summer league, and the PR department churns the hype. Every year we're told someone is working with a special someone and they're in the best shape of their lives, but it rarely turns out that way. And all the while, contrasted against the hype machine we have embarrassing statements from Marbury, buyouts, HOF coaches hired and fired in the same season, sexual harassment scandals, etc. Even some of the most ardent supporters can't wait for us to get some of the deadwood out of here so we can build this thing with some fresh, higher grade meat.

Anyway, there's really nowhere else to go with this conversation, we simply disagree on the quality of leadership on this team. And leadership isn't only defined by Vince Lombardi speaches, sometimes it's guys who lead by example and/or wills teams to win. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm gonna guess that the teams who are led by their premier players fare far better than those "led" by reserves.

Marbury, Francis, Skinny, Frye, Curry (or whatever our lineup became) is not solid leadership by any stretch of the imagination. It's a leadership void that yields less than the sum of it's parts.
RemBee76
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5/4/2007  4:26 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
And if someone tells me he's a hard worker, I'm going to puke.

Well, I hope you had something tasty for lunch Bip...

There is no one player on this team that works harder to stay in shape. Curry has to. And name another Knick player that worked on his game during the off-season with one of the assistant coaches? Or another Knick who is consistently out on the floor pre-game to practice?

I remember pre-season Isiah was making the team do wind-sprints after missed free throws. The Knicks were missing a lot of free-throws (a sign of things to come) and doing a lot of running. Everyone was winded, but the nearly 300 lb Curry was really hurting. Thomas gave him the option to sit it out, and he didn’t take it, wanting to stay with the team and go through what everyone else was going through. He ran with the guards up and down the floor. He was the last guy back, but he did it. And you know who gave him props for that, noticed the effort? Marbury.

I’m not arguing that Curry is a leader, not yet. But he’s no whiner either. I expect even bigger and better things from him next season. You’re on notice, haters.


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