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Why does Isiah still have supporters despite his 119-182 record with the Knicks?
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MS
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4/30/2007  4:04 PM
Here is what you need to take into account before the year Isiah said the starting five was what

Marbury
Francis
Jefferies
Frye
Curry

This five was intact when we went down the ****ter, and we still had James, Rose, Nate that should have been able to give us something. Along with two picks this year which your not supposed to rely on. The Knicks were awful to start the season, the question is why? Is there a reason they were always getting blown out of games early and often? Might have something to do with the Crawford Curry defensive dynmic especially when you add in frye.

We were deep enough to withstand some injuies.

Guards
Marbury, Francis, Nate, Crawford, Q, Collins

Fowards
Lee, Frye, Jefferies, Rose, Balkman

The Nets when RJ and Kristic went down had
Robinson, Moore, and who in their frontcourt? but they made do.....

Miami was playing without Shaq, Williams, Posey was out of shape as was walker and they still managed to get into the playoffs........

Fact of the matter is, you can make do with hard playing role guys. Malik Rose does not quit, nor do guys like collins and balkman because they are role guys that rely on energy and hustle no need to give isiah credit for that
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Bonn1997
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4/30/2007  4:16 PM
Posted by nixluva:

The way I look at it is that Isiah spent 1.5 years messing around with Dolan's plan and then quickly convinced Dolan to go in a new direction, with youth. Last year he turned over the roster and now in the 2nd year of his new course we started to see some results. Some of us may not like the players, but Isiah has CERTAINLY added a good deal of young talent to this roster. We'll have what amounts to 8 1st rd. picks on this squad next season. Curry, Frye, Lee, Nate, Balkman, Collins, Morris and Draft pick? He will have done that inside of 3 off seasons. All of these guys will be about the same age. We'll still have talented vets like Steph, Jamal and Q as well. I don't see the record as being as much of a big deal as the make up and development of the roster. Eventually this group will come together and start winning. I believe this coming year we'll see that. This is why I am still a supporter of what Isiah has done. The only really bad part of his tenure was the 1st 1.5 years and I think Dolan had a large part in that. Since then he's been steadily rebuilding this roster and I like what he's doing with it.

Just think about where we were and how at this point we're looking for 2 role players to make this team more complete. We pretty much all agree that a shooter and a shotblocker will help to make this a better team. So I see no reason for being overly pessimistic at this point.
So if Isiah makes significant roster changes this off-season, does he get another fresh start? Will he be merely in year one of the current plan and the next two to four years will thus still be too soon to expect wins? Is every year year one?
kam77
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4/30/2007  4:24 PM
Isiah has one more year of support left in my eyes. If he can't preside over a 41+ win roster at least once in his tenure, he can be shown the door.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Bippity10
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4/30/2007  4:30 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Bippity10:

My lack of patience comes from you telling me this team would win 41-46 games this year because of the deep bench. I trusted you. When they won 33 I became impatient.

Bip you REALLY need to get over yourself! My opinion should have NOTHING to do with how you personally feel about the team. Regardless of whether this team had won half of it's games or not, they would still be a team of the future. This team still requires patience and recognition of the stage that we're at. This isn't a right now team like Miami that is loaded with Vets who are about done in this league. And just for the record at 29-34 this team stood a shot at still reaching 41 wins with a strong finish. 12 wins to end the year would've done it and that wasn't impossible if the team was healthy. Even if they only went 10-9 that would have had them close to on target. So just relax on all that crap.

With regard to the bench, in what way does ANY TEAM have a bench that can make up for the loss of 3-4 of their best players being out all at once? When you lose that many key guys all at once there's a natural period of adjustment that a team has to go thru and in our case it took too long and wasn't enough. GO AHEAD and tell me that a team which was basically at best about a .500 team, is supposed to be able to handle that much loss of production and experience? You want to keep bringing this crap up like you have some kind go great point and YOU DON'T. This is sheer ignorance you keep spouting. I explained that a good bench is there for getting thru foul trouble, suspensions, back to backs and injuries, but not in the way that we saw to end this year. No team wants to go the last 20 games with a depleted roster.

It's true that we didn't get good performances from Frye and Jared and that might have given us a chance to win a few more games. If Balkman and Collins were a bit more experienced that could have helped. Nate seemed to make a ton of crucial mistakes, but he seemed to be learning as the year came to a close. We'll see next year how much these young players gained from this year and how hard they work this summer.

Dude I was being sarcastic. My expectations of this team actually seem to be more realistic than yours. You called for 41-46 wins. I told you to slow down cowboy. You screamed of deep benches and haters. Now that your team had yet another tough season you are lecturing the rest of the fans on the need to be patient. I say poppydoodle.

For the record, you've posted with me long enough to recognize sarcasm and understand that my opinion stands on it's own.
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Bippity10
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4/30/2007  4:32 PM
To be honest Nixluva everytime I hear you scream for patience after the summer of sugar plums we had to listen to coming out of your mouth about deep benches etc, I just want to take your posts, turn them to paper form and then urinate on them.
I just hope that people will like me
RemBee76
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4/30/2007  4:33 PM
Posted by MS:

We were deep enough to withstand some injuies.

Again I find this idea that a team should overcome 95-100 key minutes worth of injuries (almost 140 when Marbury was out) completely absurd and self-serving for the doubters who no question were enjoying the Knicks' troubles as they would a vanilla sundae on a July afternoon.

Yes, lets hold up Miami and New Jersey as examples, two teams made up of established veterans whose rosters have been together with a system in place for longer than the Knicks. And in case you missed it, the Nets barely made the playoffs despite expectations that they would be among the elite in the Eastern conference, and Miami was the NBA bloody Champion last year, so managing to make the playoffs (and then getting swept) is hardly an example of a team overcoming injuries. Give us an F'ing break.

True, we had Isiah's imagined starting line-up in place, but they had hardly played together all season and had little success when they did. Again, a self-serving argument because you couldn't possibly have watched the Knicks this season while they were playing roughly .500 ball and establishing themselves (and maybe you weren't) without noting that Crawford and Lee were key contributors to that. You can't have it both ways, chaps, telling us how Marbury and Curry suck, then wonder why there was a let down when the team was most dependent on the contributions from those two.

I agree with Briggs, let the W's dictate. If I honestly expected another 33 win year (as some here do, it would seem) then I would be looking for a change as well. I do not. And I see enough of what the Knicks have had to overcome to get here to not take what will hopefully be steady improvement for granted.

After 42 wins the doubters will say we suck because we aren't conference champions. After giving us 15 straight years of playoff basketball, sometimes I really wonder what the Knicks have done to deserve fans like that.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
MS
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4/30/2007  4:44 PM
Who do the Magic have that should reall get them into the playoffs?

Eddy is supposed to be a franchise player and he played the entire year with Marbury why didn't we finish ahead of the Raptors. We didn't even finish ahead of the sixers!

Are recored in Atlantic the worst record in basketball was a disgrace. I can look at the hornets playing in a much deeper conference with better teams young having not played together their stars missingmore time than ours and finishing with a much better record......

Lets give the ****ing guy a pass, you should give yourself a break. Midlevel players are supposed to be impact players. You could get two guys for the vet min and they would do more to help the team win. You want to make a big trade and **** up the unity of the lockeroom by adding francis your at fault. Who knew that would backfire. Fact of the matter is the knicks should have been able to make the playoffs.

Curry 6 years in the league, Crawford 7, Marbury, Francis, Jefferies, Rose, we have veterans everyone on this roster. I don't give someone a pass just because he mad ****ty decisions in the front office and coaching this roster. He ****ed up and still should have been able to put a decent team out there.

Frankly if these players actually played a full 48 minutes and committed in the offseason we should still be in a series right now
misterearl
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4/30/2007  4:54 PM
A Half-Dozen Halfway decent reasons:

David Lee with the 30th pick

Renaldo Balkman, hustle and muscle

Mardy Collins, a big guard with a brain

Stealing Randolph Morris in the middle of the night

Channing Frye, who will only be a junior next season

the unexpected first round pick that in all probability will be able to play a lick

33 wins is better than 23 wins and 43+ wins ain't out of the question

they fought back for a change

okay, that's seven, or is that eight?

so sue me



once a knick always a knick
Bonn1997
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4/30/2007  5:54 PM
Posted by kam77:

Isiah has one more year of support left in my eyes. If he can't preside over a 41+ win roster at least once in his tenure, he can be shown the door.

Fair enough!
knicks1248
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4/30/2007  7:56 PM
First of all, you guys think about the make up of the team once the injuries sarted to mount. we did not have one single reliable threat from the perimter. Curry (despite what some may think) was getting moe attention then the pope after he turnded it up on the offensive. Im sure fry was asked to hang out on the perimeter to at least have one more shooter.

You also have to take into a fact that every team that finished ahead of us were more experience and had at least one super star, at best we should have won about 4/5 games despite injuries. we were just too flawed with the injuries to expect much depite the talant we had.

This was blessing in disguise for our rookies.
ES
Bonn1997
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4/30/2007  8:52 PM
Posted by kam77:

Isiah has one more year of support left in my eyes. If he can't preside over a 41+ win roster at least once in his tenure, he can be shown the door.
While we're at it, how many more years does Eddy get to start improving his defense and passing?
kam77
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4/30/2007  9:08 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by kam77:

Isiah has one more year of support left in my eyes. If he can't preside over a 41+ win roster at least once in his tenure, he can be shown the door.
While we're at it, how many more years does Eddy get to start improving his defense and passing?

Eddy and Isiah are very likely tied at the hip. But to answer you, i give Eddy more leeway to improve his job than Isiah at his. I wonder if i'm off-base. But I give him at least another 2 full seasons.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
EnySpree
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4/30/2007  9:44 PM
Lots of long winded stuff.

Isiah was told to turn water into wine when he first guy here. He made an attempt to get talent and players with expiring contracts to make a play for some all-star calibir talent. Isiah took risks. Some of the trades worked out in the begining some didn't, but isiah did get the expireing deals he wanted.

I think all of a sudden buying out contracts was a call made but someone over isiah especially after that francis trade. Knicks could have used them.

One thing that isiah did was pick up some low draft picks. Some say he overpaid to get them, but all those picks turned out to be solid players.

I give isiah credit for playing multiple scenerios at once. He was trying to win now while keeping his hand in the draft.

Now the knicks have a solid foundation of youth with some skilled vets that play hard and stick together. Isiahs last chance now is to fill in the pieces.

I'm giving the dude one last chance. That doesn't mean I'm a supporter. I just like the players for the most part. If isiah can dump frye and francis for players that can actually do the job they were supposed to do then it should be a better outcome.
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islesfan
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4/30/2007  11:29 PM
Posted by misterearl:

A Half-Dozen Halfway decent reasons:

David Lee with the 30th pick

Renaldo Balkman, hustle and muscle

Mardy Collins, a big guard with a brain

Stealing Randolph Morris in the middle of the night

Channing Frye, who will only be a junior next season

the unexpected first round pick that in all probability will be able to play a lick

33 wins is better than 23 wins and 43+ wins ain't out of the question

they fought back for a change

okay, that's seven, or is that eight?

so sue me

Actually it's more like 1. 1 1/2 tops.

3 1/2 years, hundreds of millions of dollars, 4 potential lottery picks traded away, 3 completely wasted MLE's, 4 head coaches, a dwindling fanbase that now accepts 33 wins as a success and a roster without anything close to a franchise player.

That's not good enough. Not even close.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BasketballJones
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5/1/2007  12:53 AM
Posted by islesfan:


3 1/2 years, hundreds of millions of dollars, 4 potential lottery picks traded away, 3 completely wasted MLE's, 4 head coaches, a dwindling fanbase that now accepts 33 wins as a success and a roster without anything close to a franchise player.

Destroying a once proud franchise? Priceless.



[Edited by - basketballjones on 05-01-2007 00:54]
https:// It's not so hard.
nixluva
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5/1/2007  1:39 AM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by islesfan:


3 1/2 years, hundreds of millions of dollars, 4 potential lottery picks traded away, 3 completely wasted MLE's, 4 head coaches, a dwindling fanbase that now accepts 33 wins as a success and a roster without anything close to a franchise player.

Destroying a once proud franchise? Priceless.
[Edited by - basketballjones on 05-01-2007 00:54]

The franchise was in a much bigger mess before he got here. Right now we're in a much better situation. We have a team full of promising young players and we're only 2 years away from possible cap flexibility. At that time the team will still be young and hopefully peaking. If not then we can move in a different direction. I don't see how this franchise has been destroyed.
franco12
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5/1/2007  9:42 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by islesfan:


3 1/2 years, hundreds of millions of dollars, 4 potential lottery picks traded away, 3 completely wasted MLE's, 4 head coaches, a dwindling fanbase that now accepts 33 wins as a success and a roster without anything close to a franchise player.

Destroying a once proud franchise? Priceless.
[Edited by - basketballjones on 05-01-2007 00:54]

The franchise was in a much bigger mess before he got here. Right now we're in a much better situation. We have a team full of promising young players and we're only 2 years away from possible cap flexibility. At that time the team will still be young and hopefully peaking. If not then we can move in a different direction. I don't see how this franchise has been destroyed.

I'd like to think of the positives- but our 2010 pick is unrestricted and owed to Utah.

I'd like to believe Curry is better than 2 first round picks, but he isn't.

We've got 4 young guys that at best form the back drop for a winning franchise- we still don't have the main actors or the lead for the play.
Bonn1997
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5/1/2007  10:35 AM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by islesfan:


3 1/2 years, hundreds of millions of dollars, 4 potential lottery picks traded away, 3 completely wasted MLE's, 4 head coaches, a dwindling fanbase that now accepts 33 wins as a success and a roster without anything close to a franchise player.

Destroying a once proud franchise? Priceless.
[Edited by - basketballjones on 05-01-2007 00:54]

The franchise was in a much bigger mess before he got here. Right now we're in a much better situation. We have a team full of promising young players and we're only 2 years away from possible cap flexibility. At that time the team will still be young and hopefully peaking. If not then we can move in a different direction. I don't see how this franchise has been destroyed.

I'd like to think of the positives- but our 2010 pick is unrestricted and owed to Utah.

I'd like to believe Curry is better than 2 first round picks, but he isn't.

We've got 4 young guys that at best form the back drop for a winning franchise- we still don't have the main actors or the lead for the play.
Exactly, after 4 years, we've used up all our assets to get few young players who will be good role players. That's not good progress.
RemBee76
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5/1/2007  10:43 AM
Posted by franco12:

We've got 4 young guys that at best form the back drop for a winning franchise- we still don't have the main actors or the lead for the play.

If by winning franchise you mean above .500 and perennial playoff contender then this is nonsense. This team could grow from within, making no additions just developing its young talent and a team identity, and be that team next year.

If by winning franchise you mean legit championship contender then you're right, we have a little ways to go.

In the words of the Geico Caveman: Sorry we couldn't get that to you sooner.

We are, however, not nearly as far away as you imply. David Lee is no minor actor (or backdrop), he is a First Supporting Actor, and a year or two away from winning an oscar for that role. A starter will emerge from last years draft in either Balkman or Collins, but damn those two gots ta work on their jump shots if they want to have regular parts. btw, I haven't given up on Frye and Robinson after their rough sophomore years, but if they don't fit in the cast then they work on their trade value this season.

And Curry? To make the blanket statement that he isn't worth two draft picks is, at the very least, premature. More likely three years from now with those two draft picks you are still moaning about how we have no lead.

We haven't seen the top of Curry’s growth curve yet, people who say he is at his ceiling after this season are about as right as they were last season. With slightly better free-throw shooting and continued improvement 22 and 8 is not at all out of the question and those are not backdrop numbers those are all-star numbers. And his passing will magically improve when there is an offensive scheme in place to better take advantage of the attention he gets (along with a guard who can hit an open jumper).

As for finding the lead for the play we have two options we did not have three and a half years ago when Isiah took over, and they both stem from that young core. We can either use them along with cheaper contracts in a package for a guy like Jermaine ONeal. Or we can find some satisfaction as fans in watching that core’s continued improvement as they find ways to get wins (even if they are unsuccessful at first) while patiently shedding salary in the hopes of signing that lead actor outright in a couple of years.

And the fact that the second option is so unacceptable to some? Well, then you need not look any further to find how we got into this mess in the first place.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
RemBee76
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5/1/2007  10:45 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
we've used up all our assets

Funny, thats what they said after the Marbury trade, then the Crawford trade, then the Curry trade...

Its just wrong. Truth is we have assets now we didn't have before.

Now how do we use them?

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
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Why does Isiah still have supporters despite his 119-182 record with the Knicks?
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