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Raptors not ready for primetime
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K22
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4/30/2007  10:10 AM
Colangelo better hurry or DinoBosh will start ending up in Pau Gasol territory.
-- the preceding post was brought to you by the letter K and the number 22.
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nixluva
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4/30/2007  10:11 AM
Posted by TheGame:

[Yeah, I have said the same thing before. We beat ourselves more times than the competition beat us. If these players can learn to play smarter and reduce the turnovers and Balkman, Collins, and Lee can improve their shooting, we will make a big jump in the standings next year.

When you avg 17 TO's a game that's a sign that you tend to beat yourself with mistakes and a lack of execution and concentration. We also gave up way too many open 3's and teams shot a high % against us. At the end of games we would make a critical mistake in just about every game and that also helped to keep us from going on any extended win streaks.

I don't expect that we'll completely solve all of those problems next year, but I do believe that we'll start the season ahead of how we started last year. I don't forsee the same level of confusion and lack of chemistry. Especially at home. That was a HUGE problem last year and if you take that issue away this team will likely have a much better home record next year. Also factor in that we didn't have Balkman and Collins with a year under their belt. Now we can reasonably expect them to be ready for what the NBA is all about. They won't be nervous or out of sorts due to the newness of the situation. HOPEFULLY they will be better and if they get more minutes from the start of the year that will really help this team defensively. We also need at least one of our PF's either Jared, Frye or Morris to step up. 2 of them would be even better, but we can't have another year where we get next to nothing from them. I would guess that they'd all be motivated to come back better.
tkf
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4/30/2007  11:06 AM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:

Knicks not even elligible for Primetime yet alone be ready for it.


Toronto is getting exposed by a battle tested playoff team. They'll grow and learn from it.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-29-2007 8:57 PM]


Learn what? that they are easily exposed in post season?


I am sure they will learn something, the playoffs is a good thing, but I think the point here is that they have some obvious flaws and without any changes, learning from this playoff beating so far is not going to make them significantly better..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
djsunyc
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4/30/2007  11:12 AM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:

Knicks not even elligible for Primetime yet alone be ready for it.


Toronto is getting exposed by a battle tested playoff team. They'll grow and learn from it.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-29-2007 8:57 PM]


Learn what? that they are easily exposed in post season?


I am sure they will learn something, the playoffs is a good thing, but I think the point here is that they have some obvious flaws and without any changes, learning from this playoff beating so far is not going to make them significantly better..

changes need to be made - but that's true for any team that lose, either in the regular season or early in the playoffs. should the knicks stand pat?

but the hope is that bosh, who's 22, realizes what HE needs to do to become a real franchise player. superstar players win. the elite ones win a title. if the raptors want to win, and at a very high level, it's in bosh's hands. (and to a lesser extent ford & bargnani's too) so they HAVE to become better players. that's why this "beating" can make the raptors significantly better if the players i mentioned make some quantum leaps.
MS
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4/30/2007  11:21 AM
I for some reason think the east is a garbage conference outside of a few teams.

I think Toronto, Cleveland, Orlando are just not good teams, and although the Raptors had a nice season i don't really think they are something to be very excited about. Ford still doesn't impress me, if you make him a scorer like frank did he doesn't do the things that will help his team win the game, and outside of bosh i am not impressed with any of their starters. Which is why i think the knicks not having a better season is such a disgrace.

Orlando doesn't have a 2 or a 3, nelson is just pretty good and howard really can't do anything on offense other than dunk and get some offensive rebounds. Did they have more talent than the knicks, no.......

If your a GM in this league just stand pat, don't oversign and wait for other gms, almost all of them to make terrible moves. Cleveland case in point....Wesly, Jones, Marshal, Hughes, how do these guys have jobs?
nixluva
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4/30/2007  11:26 AM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:

Knicks not even elligible for Primetime yet alone be ready for it.


Toronto is getting exposed by a battle tested playoff team. They'll grow and learn from it.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-29-2007 8:57 PM]


Learn what? that they are easily exposed in post season?


I am sure they will learn something, the playoffs is a good thing, but I think the point here is that they have some obvious flaws and without any changes, learning from this playoff beating so far is not going to make them significantly better..

THANK YOU!!! See it's all to easy to hail Colangelo as a genius and bash Isiah, but after all of Colangelo's moves, he has put together a team that in my opinion doesnt' have a high upside, cuz some of the guys he added aren't going to get much better. TJ, Garbajosa, Parker and Calderon are pretty much what they're gonna be. Bargnani has a chance to get much better, but overall this team will need to make some changes or additions in order to really advance. It's a nice regular season team, but they have no real inside presence and very little breakdown ability. In the playoffs you're likely going to face the better defensive teams in the league, so if you don't have a superior offensive attack, teams will be able to shut down your top options and you won't have a plan B to go to. To me Orlando had a similar problem. If we had stayed healthy and gotten in, I believe we'd be a much tougher team to deal with than either of those teams. We have a Post presence and we have breakdown players. We also crash the boards VERY hard. I just think that in terms of what a team needs to be successful in the playoffs, the Knicks are built more for that and I think we'll see that next year.
Bonn1997
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4/30/2007  11:51 AM
Who's more likely to improve: Bosh at age 22 and with good work ethic or lazy Eddy at age 24?
Solace
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4/30/2007  11:55 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Who's more likely to improve: Bosh at age 22 and with good work ethic or lazy Eddy at age 24?

Bingo. The Raptors surrounded some future stars with a good core and they're going for it. We surround guys who might not be TOP 50 NBA players with a mish-mosh of players in such a way that half the team doesn't know their role... see the difference?

We're trying to fit wooden pegs into square holes. If Eddy Curry and Stephon Marbury are your stars, YUCK, but fine... surround them with complimentary talent, then.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
McK1
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4/30/2007  12:00 PM
teams need guys who think the game ie playmakers, guys who play a solid floor game etc., to advance in the play-offs.

only 2 with such attributes Isiah acquired thus far is Mardy and Balkman whom neither are going to get 35 mpg here.



the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
nixluva
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4/30/2007  12:19 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Who's more likely to improve: Bosh at age 22 and with good work ethic or lazy Eddy at age 24?

Bingo. The Raptors surrounded some future stars with a good core and they're going for it. We surround guys who might not be TOP 50 NBA players with a mish-mosh of players in such a way that half the team doesn't know their role... see the difference?

We're trying to fit wooden pegs into square holes. If Eddy Curry and Stephon Marbury are your stars, YUCK, but fine... surround them with complimentary talent, then.

Exactly what does the 2 years difference mean anyway? Is Bosh suddenly going to become a dominant post up force? I don't think he's that kind of player. He's going to get smarter and the next time he's in the playoffs he won't be as frazzled, but it's not about him. I was speaking about the rest of the team that Colangelo put together. Those guys have limited upside. IMO he's going to have to make some changes. He may not feel that way. Perhaps he feels that if he only had Garbo, that his team would be right there.

As for the Knicks, I don't think we're as far off as some of you keep making it seem. There's nothing wrong with Steph and Curry being 2 of our top players. Lee will likely continue to be a factor as will Jamal and Q. We will add some help in the draft and HOPEFULLY we'll see some internal growth from our returning young players. Like any other developing team there are some things that are yet to be proven about the players on this team. Based on what i've seen tho, I think we're right there with the Raps. They had the better season, but I don't view their future prospects as better than ours.
djsunyc
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4/30/2007  12:24 PM
Posted by nixluva:

IMO he's going to have to make some changes. He may not feel that way. Perhaps he feels that if he only had Garbo, that his team would be right there.

the guy traded kidd for marbury, gave him an extension and traded him 1 year later.
he signed quentin to 6 years, traded him a year later.
he traded joe johnson too and got 2 #1's and diaw for him.

colangelo does not stand pat.

ford, bosh, bargnani have as much upside as any 3 young core players in the east. does that mean they will fulfill their potential? no. but they have the potential.
nixluva
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4/30/2007  12:47 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:

IMO he's going to have to make some changes. He may not feel that way. Perhaps he feels that if he only had Garbo, that his team would be right there.

the guy traded kidd for marbury, gave him an extension and traded him 1 year later.
he signed quentin to 6 years, traded him a year later.
he traded joe johnson too and got 2 #1's and diaw for him.

colangelo does not stand pat.

ford, bosh, bargnani have as much upside as any 3 young core players in the east. does that mean they will fulfill their potential? no. but they have the potential.

So basically Colangelo is a bit like Isiah in that he changes his plan frequently too :) No really I hear what you're saying. He may just do that, but who can tell if he really feels he needs to or not?

As for TJ, Bosh and AB, I think TJ is about as good as he's gonna be. I think Bosh will get a tad better in terms off his experience level and knowing how to react to certain situations. AB has more of a chance to make a big jump in level of play, cuz he's so new to this. I'm really not that concerned with those 3. It's the rest of the team that bothers me. We'll see if Colangelo can make the needed moves to make this team more playoff ready.
Bippity10
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4/30/2007  12:57 PM
I think there is a difference between making a move for a guy that fits your plan but doesn't pan out, and making a move for a Steve Francis, JJ, Jalen etc type that makes no sense.
I just hope that people will like me
MS
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4/30/2007  1:26 PM
All I know is the Suns were not matching Joe Johnsons deal, and Billy Knight because he has zero brains, gave up a good starter in diaw and two numbers ones, one of which is in this draft which is the deepest in years. Joe is an allstar but he slashed payroll and got lottery talent....

Turned Q's terrible contract into an expiring reliable defender by giving up a draft selection and actually made a great signing with Raja Bell. He turned the team over in two years and they put a system with a coach in place that works....
djsunyc
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4/30/2007  1:31 PM
the raps offense is based on ball movement and bosh. what the nets are doing is sagging under the picks and playing 2 guys very close to bosh so he has little room to operate...thus making him a jump shooter. and tj and calderon are taking so many shots b/c the nets are giving it to them. they chose to sag on bosh and let the guards beat them. they are also playing the passing lanes perfectly. the raps offense has been easy for the nets to stop. mitchell's adjustments have not worked.
TrueBlue
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4/30/2007  1:38 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

the raps offense is based on ball movement and bosh. what the nets are doing is sagging under the picks and playing 2 guys very close to bosh so he has little room to operate...thus making him a jump shooter. and tj and calderon are taking so many shots b/c the nets are giving it to them. they chose to sag on bosh and let the guards beat them. they are also playing the passing lanes perfectly. the raps offense has been easy for the nets to stop. mitchell's adjustments have not worked.

Without Garbajosa who can be an inside outside guy it's hurt their overall scheme. So much of the Phx style offense depends heavily on spacing. Being that Garb was a Big body he'd take a bigger guy out of the paint and Bosh would have more room to operate but he doesn't. If I was Sam I'd take Bosh out of the paint leave Rasho in their and have him play PNR basketball with Ford. Bargnani has to learn to develop a high post game at the elbow and use his shooting and passing to make teams pay like Dirk has done his whole career.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-30-2007 12:46 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
kam77
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4/30/2007  3:34 PM
Five words i never thought i'd say:


I'm rooting for the NETS.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Bonn1997
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4/30/2007  4:11 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Who's more likely to improve: Bosh at age 22 and with good work ethic or lazy Eddy at age 24?

Bingo. The Raptors surrounded some future stars with a good core and they're going for it. We surround guys who might not be TOP 50 NBA players with a mish-mosh of players in such a way that half the team doesn't know their role... see the difference?

We're trying to fit wooden pegs into square holes. If Eddy Curry and Stephon Marbury are your stars, YUCK, but fine... surround them with complimentary talent, then.

Exactly what does the 2 years difference mean anyway? Is Bosh suddenly going to become a dominant post up force? I don't think he's that kind of player. He's going to get smarter and the next time he's in the playoffs he won't be as frazzled, but it's not about him. I was speaking about the rest of the team that Colangelo put together. Those guys have limited upside. IMO he's going to have to make some changes. He may not feel that way. Perhaps he feels that if he only had Garbo, that his team would be right there.

As for the Knicks, I don't think we're as far off as some of you keep making it seem. There's nothing wrong with Steph and Curry being 2 of our top players. Lee will likely continue to be a factor as will Jamal and Q. We will add some help in the draft and HOPEFULLY we'll see some internal growth from our returning young players. Like any other developing team there are some things that are yet to be proven about the players on this team. Based on what i've seen tho, I think we're right there with the Raps. They had the better season, but I don't view their future prospects as better than ours.
You obsessed over the age difference and missed the part about work ethic and conditioning. You also have to remember that Bosh is already at a higher level from which to work on improving than is Curry. If neither improves at all, Bosh will continue making all-star and playoff appearances while Eddy watches both.



[Edited by - bonn1997 on 04-30-2007 4:11 PM]
Solace
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4/30/2007  5:54 PM
I hate when Nixluva responds. He basically dodges the actually content of the post and makes it an age thing. NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT AGE SOLELY.

The Raptors are in MUCH better shape than we are. All you need to see that is two eyes. They're very young, yes, but have a nice core. Curry and Marbury is not a nice core. Almost every team in the league has a better core than that and you basically win with your top players. Lee is good, but he's not better than at least 15 of the league's starting PFs. Craw is good, but he's probably not a starter on most teams. Q's health is in serious question. When he is healthy, our record is approximately the same as when he is out, so while I like his style of play, he's not that much of an impact other than giving us someone who is 'questionably' a shooter, and a good rebounder and solid perimeter defender.

It's not about quantity, Nix. You can't say, "We have five young kids, they have three". It's about quality. The fact is that the Raps have Bosh, a former #4 pick, who is developing rapidly and headed towards becoming a top 10 NBA player. They have last year's #1 pick who looks like he's going to be the next Dirk Nowitzki. Maybe not as good as Dirk, but that kind of style and likely an NBA star. They have TJ Ford, who, while, I've been against undersized PGs, is a very good distributor, and beats any backcourt player we have. Then Garbajosa, etc... they're a very good team.

The Knicks just don't have these things. To assume that it's all going to gel, everything works out fine, no worries... when there's serious signs that disagree with you, I don't know, man.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bonn1997
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4/30/2007  6:05 PM
Posted by Solace:

I hate when Nixluva responds. He basically dodges the actually content of the post and makes it an age thing. NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT AGE SOLELY.

The Raptors are in MUCH better shape than we are. All you need to see that is two eyes. They're very young, yes, but have a nice core. Curry and Marbury is not a nice core. Almost every team in the league has a better core than that and you basically win with your top players. Lee is good, but he's not better than at least 15 of the league's starting PFs. Craw is good, but he's probably not a starter on most teams. Q's health is in serious question. When he is healthy, our record is approximately the same as when he is out, so while I like his style of play, he's not that much of an impact other than giving us someone who is 'questionably' a shooter, and a good rebounder and solid perimeter defender.

It's not about quantity, Nix. You can't say, "We have five young kids, they have three". It's about quality. The fact is that the Raps have Bosh, a former #4 pick, who is developing rapidly and headed towards becoming a top 10 NBA player. They have last year's #1 pick who looks like he's going to be the next Dirk Nowitzki. Maybe not as good as Dirk, but that kind of style and likely an NBA star. They have TJ Ford, who, while, I've been against undersized PGs, is a very good distributor, and beats any backcourt player we have. Then Garbajosa, etc... they're a very good team.

The Knicks just don't have these things. To assume that it's all going to gel, everything works out fine, no worries... when there's serious signs that disagree with you, I don't know, man.
He's gonna pick the one line you said about comparing Bargani to Dirk, obsess over it, and ignore the rest of your post. You know he is!
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