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Knicks’ Biggest Success: Learning to Be a Team
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djsunyc
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4/12/2007  10:50 AM
every player in this league can contribute to a winning situation but it's about realizing how to maximize their impact on a winning team. marbury CAN be a winning point guard, but the team around him must be different than this one. curry CAN be a winning center, but he can't be the best player on the team b/c he plays no defense. crawford CAN be on a winning team but you can't have him leading the team in shot attempts and shooting at a 40% clip. it's really all about fit, complimentary pieces, and how the players are utilized.
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nixluva
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4/12/2007  11:07 AM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by nixluva:

Well it all depends on how MUCH winning you think is reasonable to expect. I think this team had reached a point where it was playing at about a .500 level. I feel confident that this team would've improved on that if NOT for the injuries (TrueBlue). It's not a matter of just looking at the final record this year and ignoring how this team was actually playing before the injuries eventually took effect.

We all saw what this team was. They would win one and lose one. That isn't great, but it was progress for a team that hadn't played at a .500 level before. They may have never made up for the awful start they had in going 6-11, but I think they could've done much better than this. On the 10th of Mar. the Knicks were 29-34 with 19 games left. If they went 10-9 rest of the way, which is reasonable, they end up 39-43. Is that not a reasonable assumption for this team? That would be below what I wanted to see, but still respectable for this team.



Being that they were one of the most deep teams in the league according to your own opinion, shouldn't they have beat Seattle, Portland, Orlando, Sixers and NOK all home games with what they had left vs the depths of those teams they were playing?


If they would have, they would have 37wins with 2 more wins left to achieve according to your 19gms remaining projection record.

Do not deviate from what am asking you this time stay on point and answer the ?.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-12-2007 09:52 AM]

HEY there's no need to take that tone with me! I never look to dodge any of your questions and if I wish to express other points that's my right, so don't tell me what to freakin do! I have children headed to college soon that I tell what to do, but i'm well past the age when another man dictates to me. SO JUST TONE THAT CRAP DOWN!

In response to your question, any loss is a bad loss, those games in particular were bad. I once before stated to you that depth is useful mainly when there's severe foul trouble, short term injury or suspensions, but I doubt that any team would do well when 3 of it's top players are out at the same time. That's an awful lot of adjusting to do and a LOT of production and experience to make up for. How's Wash. done since they lost their guys? I already mentioned to you how much we lost with those 3 being out. 30+mpg players, 42 pts, 21 rebs, 8.5 asts. Guys who happen to be our top perimeter players, one of the best rebounders in the league. 3 of our better FT shooters and Jamal who was one of our top crunchtime players. Don't try to minimize how hard that is to compensate for.



[Edited by - nixluva on 04-12-2007 04:08 AM]
TrueBlue
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4/12/2007  11:18 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by nixluva:

Well it all depends on how MUCH winning you think is reasonable to expect. I think this team had reached a point where it was playing at about a .500 level. I feel confident that this team would've improved on that if NOT for the injuries (TrueBlue). It's not a matter of just looking at the final record this year and ignoring how this team was actually playing before the injuries eventually took effect.

We all saw what this team was. They would win one and lose one. That isn't great, but it was progress for a team that hadn't played at a .500 level before. They may have never made up for the awful start they had in going 6-11, but I think they could've done much better than this. On the 10th of Mar. the Knicks were 29-34 with 19 games left. If they went 10-9 rest of the way, which is reasonable, they end up 39-43. Is that not a reasonable assumption for this team? That would be below what I wanted to see, but still respectable for this team.



Being that they were one of the most deep teams in the league according to your own opinion, shouldn't they have beat Seattle, Portland, Orlando, Sixers and NOK all home games with what they had left vs the depths of those teams they were playing?


If they would have, they would have 37wins with 2 more wins left to achieve according to your 19gms remaining projection record.

Do not deviate from what am asking you this time stay on point and answer the ?.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-12-2007 09:52 AM]

HEY there's no need to take that tone with me! I never look to dodge any of your questions and if I wish to express other points that's my right, so don't tell me what to freakin do! I have children headed to college soon that I tell what to do, but i'm well past the age when another man dictates to me. SO JUST TONE THAT CRAP DOWN!

In response to your question, any loss is a bad loss, those games in particular were bad. I once before stated to you that depth is useful mainly when there's severe foul trouble, short term injury or suspensions, but I doubt that any team would do well when 3 of it's top players are out at the same time. That's an awful lot of adjusting to do and a LOT of production and experience to make up for. How's Wash. done since they lost their guys? I already mentioned to you how much we lost with those 3 being out. 30+mpg players, 42 pts, 21 rebs, 8.5 asts. Guys who happen to be our top perimeter players, one of the best rebounders in the league. 3 of our better FT shooters and Jamal who was one of our top crunchtime players. Don't try to minimize how hard that is to compensate for.



[Edited by - nixluva on 04-12-2007 04:08 AM]


The Blazers had a 23pt/10reb player out of the lineup and overall have less depth than the Knicks. How were they able to beat us on our own floor?

Seattle had Lewis and Allen but what about the depth of the rest of their team compared to the Knicks at the time of matchup?

Was Orlando's depth prior to matchup superior to ours?

Ditto Sixers?






[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-12-2007 10:20 AM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
newyorknewyork
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4/12/2007  11:19 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

every player in this league can contribute to a winning situation but it's about realizing how to maximize their impact on a winning team. marbury CAN be a winning point guard, but the team around him must be different than this one. curry CAN be a winning center, but he can't be the best player on the team b/c he plays no defense. crawford CAN be on a winning team but you can't have him leading the team in shot attempts and shooting at a 40% clip. it's really all about fit, complimentary pieces, and how the players are utilized.

Thank you DJ. I have been saying that for yrs. I bet you if Jason Terry still played for the Hawks people would be talking about how much of a loser he is.

We need more quality around Curry & Lee in the frontcourt. Frye isn't getting it done & James, Cato, Rose, Jefferies aren't good enough.

We also need a pure 2-way shooting guard who can really really shoot.

Frye, Nate, & our draft pick are the pieces we have to fill those voids for next season.

Mardy should play a lot of SF next season. Marbury can play off the ball a lot, and shoot spot up 3s. Crawford can be our playmaker, while Collins can direct the offense from the SF position when he is in. Q should be religated to being used only for matchups or as a shooting specialist or something.
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islesfan
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4/12/2007  12:05 PM
Posted by nixluva:

You have to start somewhere after the mess that was left last year. We had to establish something in the way of a team identity where there wasn't one. It's not a simple thing to jump from nothing to the highest levels with a team that was pretty much put together last year. What did we have something like 11 new players. We also came into this year with a couple of rooks and they turned out really nice.

No one is ignoring the negatives that still exist with this team. We all know that they have a long way to go. My problem with some of you is that you refuse to acknowledge any of the positive things that had started to show themselves this year and get obscured by the way this season has ended. This team started off slow, but after that inital period where they struggled to find themselves, they really did start to play better, even if they didn't always win. That's a start!

This is the part of the article that should be looked at and acknowledged:

"The Knicks firmly believe the world would view them differently had they not been racked by injuries. Between Feb. 27 and March 10, they lost Jamal Crawford, David Lee and Richardson to injuries that eventually ended their seasons. The three were among the Knicks’ top six scorers, their two leading rebounders and their best playmaker.

From Dec. 18 to March 3, the Knicks went 19-16. Their record never approached .500, but they occupied eighth place in the Eastern Conference on March 10 and remained in the playoff race until the past two weeks, when the injuries became too much to overcome.

That, Richardson said, is why this team should not be viewed as “the same old Knicks.”

In a period of about 12 days this team lost 3 of it's best players and that came at a time when this team had a chance to peak. They had just had their 1st winning month and Mar. had more home games. They had a chance to pick up a good amount of wins in that time period. This totally changed the way this season is perceived. BUT they kept playing hard, even tho they lost many of the games, they still fought in most of the games they played. Many of the games were lost in the last minutes. They stayed united and didn't give up. That's a very positive sign for this team going forward.

I'm not sure what the point is in selecting the absolute best stretch of the season and making it look like it means something but let's take a closer look at that glorious 19-16 stretch.

They lost the 2 games preceding that stretch and lost the game after that stretch so to be fair in the best stretch of their season, they were .500.

In that 19-16 stretch, they played 9 opponents who were over .500 at the time and 27 opponents who were under .500 at the time. Included in those 9 opponents who were over .500 at the time was a Lakers team that had Kobe suspended a few hours before gametime. In other words it was probably the weakest part of their schedule.

Before that 19-16 stretch, to start the season they played 13 quality opponents (14 if you want to count Toronto who was under .500 at that point) and 13 subpar teams. The Knicks were 9-17 during that stretch.

Since that 19-16 stretch they have played 9 opponents who were over .500 at the time and 8 opponents who were under .500 at the time. The quality of their opponents along with their lack of effort in 6 bad home losses against sub .500 teams (Seattle, NOK, Portland, Orlando, Philly and Minn) has a lot more to do with their 4-13 record since.

So during the Knicks absolute easiest part of their schedule, which included 27 under .500 teams, they went 19-16. In the other parts of their schedule when their competition was more evenly divided between above .500 teams (22) and below .500 teams (21), the Knicks went 13-30.

This is what should be looked at and acknowledged. But we know it won't.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nixluva
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4/12/2007  12:08 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:

The Blazers had a 23pt/10reb player out of the lineup and overall have less depth than the Knicks. How were they able to beat us on our own floor?

Seattle had Lewis and Allen but what about the depth of the rest of their team compared to the Knicks at the time of matchup?

Was Orlando's depth prior to matchup superior to ours?

Ditto Sixers?
eBlue on 04-12-2007 10:20 AM][/size=1]

One thing this team will have to improve on is the poor starts. We gave lower level teams, like those you just mentioned too much confidence early and then we have problems with them when the game is on the line. Isiah never really adjusted things to stop that from happening, perhaps is was a matter of just not having the right mix. Whatever the reason, we should look to get off to much better starts and not have to keep climbing back into games every night. This was made even more important once we lost the 3 guys we did. It was always a problem tho, but we often were able to overcome it and still pull out a win. That stopped happening when the guys went down.

Since we're a high TO team we can't really play high % when games are close, cuz we're bound to make a mistake during crunchtime. This also has to change. We may not have been able to fix those problems during the year, but i'm hopeful that we can refine the roster and add a couple of players who are more careful with the ball and who can give us a better balance so we don't start games so slowly.

nyk4ever
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4/12/2007  1:01 PM
Built-In Excuse #1000000 for next year: By Isiah making trades and signings this coming offseason, it's going to take a while for the new team to gel and develop.

absolutely pathetic.
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newyorknewyork
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4/12/2007  1:27 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Built-In Excuse #1000000 for next year: By Isiah making trades and signings this coming offseason, it's going to take a while for the new team to gel and develop.

absolutely pathetic.

I don't see it. If Isiah doesn't start of strong next season I don't see him lasting long.

Reguardless of Isiah being the GM/coach or not. This team can make the playoffs next season with an upgrade in production around Curry & Lee. And a very good, 2-way, outside shooting 2 guard.

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martin
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4/12/2007  1:35 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by nyk4ever:

Built-In Excuse #1000000 for next year: By Isiah making trades and signings this coming offseason, it's going to take a while for the new team to gel and develop.

absolutely pathetic.

I don't see it. If Isiah doesn't start of strong next season I don't see him lasting long.

Reguardless of Isiah being the GM/coach or not. This team can make the playoffs next season with an upgrade in production around Curry & Lee. And a very good, 2-way, outside shooting 2 guard.

unfortunately Isiah just signed a contract extension and it seems as if he is here for at least another season, good or bad.

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TrueBlue
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4/12/2007  1:36 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by nyk4ever:

Built-In Excuse #1000000 for next year: By Isiah making trades and signings this coming offseason, it's going to take a while for the new team to gel and develop.

absolutely pathetic.

I don't see it. If Isiah doesn't start of strong next season I don't see him lasting long.

Reguardless of Isiah being the GM/coach or not. This team can make the playoffs next season with an upgrade in production around Curry & Lee. And a very good, 2-way, outside shooting 2 guard.

unfortunately Isiah just signed a contract extension and it seems as if he is hear for at least another season, good or bad.

Dolan has proven he'll eat a contract. Problem is not ISAYUGH's. Maybe he'll cross him by accident.
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newyorknewyork
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4/12/2007  1:39 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by nyk4ever:

Built-In Excuse #1000000 for next year: By Isiah making trades and signings this coming offseason, it's going to take a while for the new team to gel and develop.

absolutely pathetic.

I don't see it. If Isiah doesn't start of strong next season I don't see him lasting long.

Reguardless of Isiah being the GM/coach or not. This team can make the playoffs next season with an upgrade in production around Curry & Lee(edit in the frontcourt). And a very good, 2-way, outside shooting 2 guard.

I meant to edit this not quote it. Oh well


[Edited by - newyorknewyork on 04-12-2007 1:41 PM]
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eViL
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4/12/2007  1:41 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by martin:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by nyk4ever:

Built-In Excuse #1000000 for next year: By Isiah making trades and signings this coming offseason, it's going to take a while for the new team to gel and develop.

absolutely pathetic.

I don't see it. If Isiah doesn't start of strong next season I don't see him lasting long.

Reguardless of Isiah being the GM/coach or not. This team can make the playoffs next season with an upgrade in production around Curry & Lee. And a very good, 2-way, outside shooting 2 guard.

unfortunately Isiah just signed a contract extension and it seems as if he is hear for at least another season, good or bad.

Dolan has proven he'll eat a contract. Problem is not ISAYUGH's. Maybe he'll cross him by accident.

I really think Dolan could do something ridiculous and fire Isiah mid-season next year. I mean, the guy is a nut. It's like he thrives on being unpredictable. He might fire Isiah this summer. Who knows? Stay tuned. The summer is the most exciting time to be a Knicks fan.
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jimimou
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4/12/2007  1:42 PM
^^^ please, don't tease like that evil....
BlueSeats
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4/12/2007  2:08 PM
It's not how you start it's how you finish. Unless you finish badly, then it's about how you start next year. Unless you start badly, then it's about how you finish. And so on.
misterearl
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4/12/2007  3:31 PM
>>are the knicks a young team that's learning and growing or are they the atlanta hawks?

djsu - judging by the repeated tension between Josh Smith and his head coach there are some important chemical issues for the Hawks to work through

besides, Zeke drafts WAY better than Knight with lower picks to work with... and will shock us yet again with an unexpected draft pick

not that the Knicks don't have some important OTHER decisions to make, but our young core is on the same page... let's hope The Almost-Magnificent Seven Yoots - Balkman, Morris, Collins, Lee, Curry, Crawford, and even the frequently-despised Channing Frye.... dedicate themselves over the Summer and come back stronger.






[Edited by - misterearl on 04-12-2007 3:36 PM]
once a knick always a knick
MS
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4/12/2007  4:22 PM
Ok what core would you rather have

Johnson (allstar), Childress, Smith (Allstar next season, superstar if he gets his head on right, already one of the leagues best all around players at his position), Marvin Williams, Cap Space and a draft selection

or

Curry, Lee, Balkman, Crawford, Frye, Collins, Nate

You get a good coach and a pg in Atlanta and they are better than us, they could very easily sign a pg this offseason with their loads of cap money
oohah
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4/12/2007  4:26 PM
Posted by MS:

Ok what core would you rather have

Johnson (allstar), Childress, Smith (Allstar next season, superstar if he gets his head on right, already one of the leagues best all around players at his position), Marvin Williams, Cap Space and a draft selection

or

Curry, Lee, Balkman, Crawford, Frye, Collins, Nate

You get a good coach and a pg in Atlanta and they are better than us, they could very easily sign a pg this offseason with their loads of cap money

I don't know about just the arbitrary players you picked from each team, but I would rather be the Knicks than the Hawks going into next year.

oohah

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4/12/2007  4:35 PM
re: Billy Knight

not taking Paul just off sheer talent and ability or Deron Williams for the leadership and ability he showed during the Illini's run in the tourney that season to distribute to the likes of Joe and the 2 Josh's was mind-boggling.
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4/12/2007  5:23 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by MS:

Ok what core would you rather have

Johnson (allstar), Childress, Smith (Allstar next season, superstar if he gets his head on right, already one of the leagues best all around players at his position), Marvin Williams, Cap Space and a draft selection

or

Curry, Lee, Balkman, Crawford, Frye, Collins, Nate

You get a good coach and a pg in Atlanta and they are better than us, they could very easily sign a pg this offseason with their loads of cap money

I don't know about just the arbitrary players you picked from each team, but I would rather be the Knicks than the Hawks going into next year.

oohah

Hawks have good draft picks and cap space. I'd much rather be the Hawks and get a good GM.
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4/13/2007  7:42 AM
MS - the Hawks have blown more high-end draft selections over the last decade than any franchise outside of the Clippers... perhaps more.

Talent does not override dissension.

I'd rather be the Knicks.
once a knick always a knick
Knicks’ Biggest Success: Learning to Be a Team

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