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Its about time someone else sipped some koolaid !!!
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Pharzeone
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4/9/2007  2:32 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:

You can't compare Curry to Tyrus Thomas you have to compare Curry to the value of having a lottery pick(which at the time is undetermined) and possibly another lottery pick. The same with Balkman

Dumb article

I question the post as well. So you can't compare the draft pick to the player that it was acquired for? That's a first. And the Balkman comment was incomplete.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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Pharzeone
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4/9/2007  2:38 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

a few thoughts:

balkman and tyrus thomas may be comparable now. but TT is two years younger including fewer years of college experience. i love renaldo, but TT's upside is higher IMO, although there are no guarantees there.

if curry were still on the bulls, their style of play would have to be significantly different. the bulls are a good defensive team - their perimeter defenders are backed up by very good defensive bigmen. with eddy in the mix one of the team's strengths is neutralized. replacing ben wallace's defense with eddy curry's offense is a swap of one-way talents. who knows what effect that would have? but i would predict they wouldn't be as well-off.

I could argue the other way for Balkman. IMO, I never though much of Ty Thomas. I could state that Balkman's ball handling ability might be the X factor that could seperate the two.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
TrueBlue
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4/9/2007  2:41 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by TrueBlue:

You can't compare Curry to Tyrus Thomas you have to compare Curry to the value of having a lottery pick(which at the time is undetermined) and possibly another lottery pick. The same with Balkman

Dumb article

I question the post as well. So you can't compare the draft pick to the player that it was acquired for? That's a first. And the Balkman comment was incomplete.


No because each team has an agenda. It's like this


If I did a poll and asked everyone here what you would spend $1mil dollars on I'm going to get a variation of responses. No one will use the money in the same way, therefore you have to look at it from the standpoint the value of the $1mil. Just like ISAYUGH could have easily picked Williams or Balkman at the 20-21th selection. He could have chose Williams and then Balkman later at 29. Because he had the 20th pick it gave him flexibility having the 29th pick in hand, get it? It's the value and not who you pick NIT****.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-09-2007 1:42 PM]
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islesfan
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4/9/2007  2:43 PM
What is this begat crap? How far do you go with it? The Bulls used the money saved to sign Big Ben. The Suns used the money to sign Nash. Do they count in judging those trades?

Balkman will be coming off the bench his entire career, which isn't a knock on him because I think he's a nice player but Gay, Roy and Thomas are going to be starters their entire careers and potential all stars.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Ira
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4/9/2007  2:45 PM
I'm willing to concede that the chances are that Thomas will be better than Balkmnan, but not enough better to make the trade a + for the Bulls.
TrueBlue
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4/9/2007  2:52 PM
Heck ISAYUGH could have even traded the pick(s) last yr.

Isles good point.

Not signing Curry and signing Wallace made Chandler expendable and they traded him for P.J. Brown and Smith. This trade potentially puts them under the cap next yr by almost $10mil. Then they flipped J.R. Smith to Denver for 2 2nd round draft picks.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-09-2007 1:53 PM]
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islesfan
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4/9/2007  2:57 PM
The bottomline is that Curry isn't worth 2 lottery picks.

What does Curry offer more than the average NBA center? About 8 points, that's it. But he's much worse defensively and rebounding wise and he turns the ball over more.

Is that difference worth 2 lottery picks?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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4/9/2007  3:05 PM
Posted by islesfan:

The bottomline is that Curry isn't worth 2 lottery picks.

What does Curry offer more than the average NBA center? About 8 points, that's it. But he's much worse defensively and rebounding wise and he turns the ball over more.

Is that difference worth 2 lottery picks?

Remember ISAYUGH's strength is drafting so can anyone imagine what he could do if he had Lottery Picks?


Which is it folks?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Pharzeone
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4/9/2007  3:06 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by TrueBlue:

You can't compare Curry to Tyrus Thomas you have to compare Curry to the value of having a lottery pick(which at the time is undetermined) and possibly another lottery pick. The same with Balkman

Dumb article

I question the post as well. So you can't compare the draft pick to the player that it was acquired for? That's a first. And the Balkman comment was incomplete.


No because each team has an agenda. It's like this


If I did a poll and asked everyone here what you would spend $1mil dollars on I'm going to get a variation of responses. No one will use the money in the same way, therefore you have to look at it from the standpoint the value of the $1mil. Just like ISAYUGH could have easily picked Williams or Balkman at the 20-21th selection. He could have chose Williams and then Balkman later at 29. Because he had the 20th pick it gave him flexibility having the 29th pick in hand, get it? It's the value and not who you pick NIT****.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-09-2007 1:42 PM]

You are probably biggest jackass on this forum but I will explain this to you. A draft pick is only a pick until you draft someone. There is no more talk about who you were going to select and flexibility. You picked someone, trade it, or don't pick anyone. Both Thomas and Brown said that Ty Thomas was their choice not a big secret. Ty Thomas was considered the #2 or #1 pick. A pick was made and you compare the selection to what he was acquired for.

Sweetney, Tim Thomas, Knicks unprotected 2006 first round pick, and the Bulls right to swap the 2007 pick was traded for Curry and Antonio Davis. Knicks trade DAvis for Rose and 1st round pick. Used pick to acquire Balkman while the Bulls used the pick to acquire Ty Thomas. Not hard. This isn't rocket science. Its not the theory of relativity. Its just that simple.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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4/9/2007  3:08 PM
Posted by islesfan:

What is this begat crap? How far do you go with it? The Bulls used the money saved to sign Big Ben. The Suns used the money to sign Nash. Do they count in judging those trades?

Balkman will be coming off the bench his entire career, which isn't a knock on him because I think he's a nice player but Gay, Roy and Thomas are going to be starters their entire careers and potential all stars.

Isles perhaps I gave you too much credit. You are now declaring you can forsee Balkman entire career after this season while projecting Gay, Roy and Thomas. Could you try and be objective.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
islesfan
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4/9/2007  3:28 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by islesfan:

What is this begat crap? How far do you go with it? The Bulls used the money saved to sign Big Ben. The Suns used the money to sign Nash. Do they count in judging those trades?

Balkman will be coming off the bench his entire career, which isn't a knock on him because I think he's a nice player but Gay, Roy and Thomas are going to be starters their entire careers and potential all stars.

Isles perhaps I gave you too much credit. You are now declaring you can forsee Balkman entire career after this season while projecting Gay, Roy and Thomas. Could you try and be objective.

Roy and Gay have been starters most of the year and Thomas is now starting for a top 10 team as a 20 year old. Balkman has barely gotten PT this year. I don't think I'm making any outrageous and unsupportable claims.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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4/9/2007  3:31 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by TrueBlue:

You can't compare Curry to Tyrus Thomas you have to compare Curry to the value of having a lottery pick(which at the time is undetermined) and possibly another lottery pick. The same with Balkman

Dumb article

I question the post as well. So you can't compare the draft pick to the player that it was acquired for? That's a first. And the Balkman comment was incomplete.


No because each team has an agenda. It's like this


If I did a poll and asked everyone here what you would spend $1mil dollars on I'm going to get a variation of responses. No one will use the money in the same way, therefore you have to look at it from the standpoint the value of the $1mil. Just like ISAYUGH could have easily picked Williams or Balkman at the 20-21th selection. He could have chose Williams and then Balkman later at 29. Because he had the 20th pick it gave him flexibility having the 29th pick in hand, get it? It's the value and not who you pick NIT****.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-09-2007 1:42 PM]

You are probably biggest jackass on this forum but I will explain this to you. A draft pick is only a pick until you draft someone. There is no more talk about who you were going to select and flexibility. You picked someone, trade it, or don't pick anyone. Both Thomas and Brown said that Ty Thomas was their choice not a big secret. Ty Thomas was considered the #2 or #1 pick. A pick was made and you compare the selection to what he was acquired for.

Sweetney, Tim Thomas, Knicks unprotected 2006 first round pick, and the Bulls right to swap the 2007 pick was traded for Curry and Antonio Davis. Knicks trade DAvis for Rose and 1st round pick. Used pick to acquire Balkman while the Bulls used the pick to acquire Ty Thomas. Not hard. This isn't rocket science. Its not the theory of relativity. Its just that simple.


Do you care to address all the other things that transpired after the Bulls traded Curry? Otherwise what I have stated makes perfect sense.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
islesfan
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4/9/2007  3:39 PM
Cap space and money are just as much an asset as low first round picks, even moreso.

You want to begat secondary moves then do it consistantly.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Pharzeone
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4/9/2007  3:44 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by islesfan:

What is this begat crap? How far do you go with it? The Bulls used the money saved to sign Big Ben. The Suns used the money to sign Nash. Do they count in judging those trades?

Balkman will be coming off the bench his entire career, which isn't a knock on him because I think he's a nice player but Gay, Roy and Thomas are going to be starters their entire careers and potential all stars.

Isles perhaps I gave you too much credit. You are now declaring you can forsee Balkman entire career after this season while projecting Gay, Roy and Thomas. Could you try and be objective.

Roy and Gay have been starters most of the year and Thomas is now starting for a top 10 team as a 20 year old. Balkman has barely gotten PT this year. I don't think I'm making any outrageous and unsupportable claims.

Once again I am asking you are you projecting their careers based on one year because that is a mistake in the NBA. The NBA is full of starters turned sixth man, turned role players and now out the league. Sad enough in a 3 to 4 year period. I feel I must state again Bruce Browen has started on two championship teams. And doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I think Balkman has better skills then Bruce Bowen. While others started on the bench moving themselves to the starting lineup. The thing about the NBA is not where you start but where you end up and none of that stuff is set in stone.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
nixluva
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4/9/2007  3:46 PM
Posted by islesfan:

The bottomline is that Curry isn't worth 2 lottery picks.

What does Curry offer more than the average NBA center? About 8 points, that's it. But he's much worse defensively and rebounding wise and he turns the ball over more.

Is that difference worth 2 lottery picks?

This is the WRONG WAY to look at it. It's not about the point difference. It's about establishing an identity for you team and a focus. You can't really build a team until you have a corner stone. You have to have something with which to build around. All we had was Steph and if we had Tyrus he's NOT something you build a team around. CUrry is the SUN in the knicks universe and that's why Isiah wanted him so bad. Chicago didn't see him that way, which is fine, but for NY which didn't have any real focal point, it solved a HUGE problem.

As we move along Curry will still be a massive building block for this team and unless you are talking about Oden, who still has yet to prove what he's gonna be in the NBA, there's little discusson on Curry's value. He can't be stopped if given room and that's a huge advantage for this team going foward. We still have to develop the rest of the team around him and Curry as well, but it's a clear win for NY in that he is the kind of player that you will find it hard to find in this league. Isiah made the right gamble even if he paid a lot for it. If you're gonna gamble on a player Curry is the kind that you gamble on.
Masterplan
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4/9/2007  3:58 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Masterplan:

a few thoughts:

balkman and tyrus thomas may be comparable now. but TT is two years younger including fewer years of college experience. i love renaldo, but TT's upside is higher IMO, although there are no guarantees there.

if curry were still on the bulls, their style of play would have to be significantly different. the bulls are a good defensive team - their perimeter defenders are backed up by very good defensive bigmen. with eddy in the mix one of the team's strengths is neutralized. replacing ben wallace's defense with eddy curry's offense is a swap of one-way talents. who knows what effect that would have? but i would predict they wouldn't be as well-off.

I could argue the other way for Balkman. IMO, I never though much of Ty Thomas. I could state that Balkman's ball handling ability might be the X factor that could seperate the two.

hey, i see what you're saying. i'm thrilled with how renaldo's looked this season. i'm kind of just playing devils advocate a bit so don't lump me in with isles and trueblue (not that you were, just saying ).

i was really just surprised that no one brought up the age difference yet. my impression is that TT is a much less polished player at this point. maybe when he's 22 he'll have better ball handling ability to match balkman now. the age difference was actually less than i thought, and kind of inconsequential since they're both rookies at this point. but to say that renaldo is a better ball handler is evaluating skills, not potential. TT being a bit younger boosts his potential. on the other hand, renaldo not having the work ethic/attitude issues mentioned about TT helps his stock at this point. so who knows.
Pharzeone
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4/9/2007  3:58 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Cap space and money are just as much an asset as low first round picks, even moreso.

You want to begat secondary moves then do it consistantly.

Cap space for what. They acquired Ben Wallace with the cap space. This is a hot button topic in Chicago despite their record. The Bulls are still in desperate desire to acquire a post player to replace Curry. So much that they feel it necessary to acquire Paul Gasol at the trade deadline. According to Paxson, the Grizzlies just wanted to much for him at the deadline. Rumor included (Deng, Thomas, Gordon, and pick). Wallace replaced Curry but it is now believed that he actually just replaced Chandler who the Bulls didn't want to resign. Wallace has been much malignied in Chicago. So instead of spending the money on Curry and Chandler the Bulls may have to take on the contracts of Paul Gasol and KG (if they cannot acquire a post player in the draft). The thing about flexibility is that evenutally you have to use it so the point can't stay mute all the time.

Other teams with cap flexibility - Atlanta (used their flexibility to acquire Speedy Claxton who the AJC voted as one of the Hawks worst free agent signings ever), the Bucks who got rid of all their cap problem a number of years ago and now can't seem to find the playoffs.
How good is cap flexibility when it is time to pay Gordon and Deng. Its great to talk about cap flexibility until it comes time to pay and then we talk about overpaying.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Bippity10
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4/9/2007  4:01 PM
I have a dream that there will come a day that we won't judge our own personnel moves based on what the moves did for the other team, but solely on how those moves affected us.
I just hope that people will like me
TrueBlue
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4/9/2007  4:10 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by islesfan:

Cap space and money are just as much an asset as low first round picks, even moreso.

You want to begat secondary moves then do it consistantly.

Cap space for what. They acquired Ben Wallace with the cap space. This is a hot button topic in Chicago despite their record. The Bulls are still in desperate desire to acquire a post player to replace Curry. So much that they feel it necessary to acquire Paul Gasol at the trade deadline. According to Paxson, the Grizzlies just wanted to much for him at the deadline. Rumor included (Deng, Thomas, Gordon, and pick). Wallace replaced Curry but it is now believed that he actually just replaced Chandler who the Bulls didn't want to resign. Wallace has been much malignied in Chicago. So instead of spending the money on Curry and Chandler the Bulls may have to take on the contracts of Paul Gasol and KG (if they cannot acquire a post player in the draft). The thing about flexibility is that evenutally you have to use it so the point can't stay mute all the time.

Other teams with cap flexibility - Atlanta (used their flexibility to acquire Speedy Claxton who the AJC voted as one of the Hawks worst free agent signings ever), the Bucks who got rid of all their cap problem a number of years ago and now can't seem to find the playoffs.
How good is cap flexibility when it is time to pay Gordon and Deng. Its great to talk about cap flexibility until it comes time to pay and then we talk about overpaying.


The Knicks are still in a desperate need for a defensive big even with the addition Curry of that's why they acquired Randolph Morris. No intention of Curry improving his defense ISAYUGH wants him to shoot 15ftrs instead.

Aren't the Bulls 3gms within the best record in the East minus their glaring hole post presence?
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Ira
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4/9/2007  4:16 PM
Cap flexibility is much overrated, because when all is said and done, there isn't much out there to spend your money on. The result is you have to overpay. I like Ben Wallace, but he's already on the downside of his career. He's still very good this season. Maybe next season he'll be good, but not very good. After that, who knows. But Chicago will have to keep paying him. That's what cap flexibility gets you.

Its about time someone else sipped some koolaid !!!

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