For the record Indiana is 3-18 in their last 21 games I'm pretty sure there fans are just as optimistic as ours because they are STILL IN IT.

Have an opinion. If you are positive why doese it matter who isn't. If you beleive that the team is on the right track state your case and back it up. Stick to it and I respect that. Whatever you do, don't change your opinion based on the situation liek some do. Everyone can respect that. IF you beleive we are a deep team stick to it. I may disagree but I still respect your opinion.

My purpose for coming here is simply to discuss the Knicks. I don't care how positive you are or how negative you are. But if you need the site for a self-esteem boost than my guess is you probably should talk to someone other than us. Isles is a perfect example of some taking the site too seriously. His overall point is he doesn't like the way things are run. That's very clear. He hates Isiah taht is very clear. Agree or disagree the guy makes valid points. The rest of the negativity is just to get under the skin of you guys that take this stuff too seriously.

In summary, LIGHTEN UP!!!!!

[Edited by - bippity10 on 04-04-2007 4:14 PM]

Posted by jimimou:

Posted by Bippity10:

Negativity and possitivity is a reflection of the record. I'm not sure why some people on the site have such a hard time understanding this.

hey bip - that's on point. i'm sure if we were 42-31 right now instead of the other way around (i.e.: reality), this site would be HOPPING with positivity..... being at the garden for every game, i can tell you one thing, yeah, we may boo when the team is sucking it up, but there is no more positive place to be when the team is playing well. the hoopin and hollerin is unmatched anywhere. so, i believe UK would be the same way....if only we had a team we could be positive about. right?

I went to one of our 23 wins last year and the place was rockin that night. Well at least for the amount of fasn that were there. But you are 100% correct. Put a winning product on the floor and the negativity magically goes away. It's funny how that works.

Posted by nixluva:

NYK4EVER, I'm curious what kind of PLAN it is that you really expect to SEE at this point? Isn't it clear what Isiah is trying to do with the team? We all seem to be in near agreement on what the team needs at this point, in terms of players. SO unless he's going to go in a NEW direction I think we all know what the plan is to a certain degree. What you seem to be saying is that you don't want to see THIS plan continue and that you'll only be happy if he forsakes this group and starts over with a traditional rebuilding program.

I don't think we are in agreement on what we need. Sure we might agree on what positions are necessary, but I, including others, believe that we need a superstar at one of those positions, which is where you and I, and many others for that fact disagree. You are of the belief that this team can move to the next level by getting decent players to fill roles. I don't see it that way, I think this team needs a true superstar, franchise caliber player and we have absolutely no means of getting one.

You're right, I want a traditional building plan, I am of firm belief that rebuilding the way we are CAN get us to the playoffs, but it'll never give us a chance at winning a championship which is the ultimate goal. I don't want to just get to the next level, I want a group of players that have the ability to win a championship and you don't do it the way has gone about doing it and with the players he's acquired.

As I said though, you're right. We agree on positions that need to be filled but thats where the agreement ends because while you want someone like Jason Kapono to fill the SG/SF role(who I like also but he is a puzzle piece player, not a building player) I want Brandon Roy, Kevin Durant or Jeff Green, to fill the SG/SF role. It's simply a fundamental disagreement in philosophy between you and me and others. That doesn't make us any less of fans because we voice our displeasure, just because you are confident in this direction doesn't make you right either, or any more of a fan. I'm of the firm belief that if Isiah traded a 1st round pick for a ham sandwich you would find a way to put a silver lining on it. That's fine, that's how you are as a fan and theres nothing wrong with it, but I'm the opposite and it doesn't make me any less of a fan.

i'll be happy when i see some real progress from the team as a whole... that means it has to translate into W's... i see some progress from certain individual players, & for that i'm happy in judging them as individuals, but i need to see the team show better cohesion & discipline down the stretch of games & be more consistent for me to jump on the excitement bandwagon.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by nixluva:

No one is saying that you can't have your opinion, but it seems to me that some of us are taking their comments too far in regards to painting this situation as dark and hopeless. I've seen some pretty hopeful things out of this team. Lee is one off my favorite players and then you can add Balkman and Collins as guys who do the kinds of things this team has long needed. In terms of Frye and Jared, i'd remind you that Q had an off year last year, but came in this year playing much better. I think we have some things to be really positive about with this team. I'm happy about picking up Morris. We'll see who else Isiah gets this summer.

I agree that it is a tenuous situation having Curry as the centerpiece of the team going forward, but I DO believe that Isiah will be able to add the needed help to make this all work.

No one likes the bad moves, but we can't then try to throw dirt on the good moves like some have been doing.

Optimist vs. Pessimist. You're not going to change minds and you never will. People are wired differently and the pessimists are actually going to need to see something before they believe the way you believe, Nix. The same goes for you not seeing anything negative. I mean one day, the Knicks will be good again and I'm sure you're going to say "I told you so" no matter what, even if the team becomes successful one day and totally deviates from the plan that you think they will become successful by. So in the end, it really doesn't matter.

I will continue to root for the team to win every game, I will continue to hope and pray that this team gets a real plan together and thats it. Until I see some real rebuilding plan, I'm not going to lie to myself and say this team is on its way, because they aren't.

Excellent post. A lot of posters earlier this year agreed with a record of about 37 wins. A lot of the posters agree with the flaws of this team. The discrepancy mainly is with the evaluation of Isiah's tenure and the future outlook because it allows for more subjective input. The lovers can make excuses for poor decisions because the alternatives at the time are never readily apparent. As long some good player was acquired, the trade is justified. Similarly, the lovers always seem to project the best case scenario in terms of player development - often ignoring the talent disparity with the young players of other teams. Any poor signing or trade blunder is the result of bad luck. Any disappointment is always spun as a decent gamble by Isiah. I can understand if you don't like to bash the players individually, but at some point you have to question the decision making. Where's the acountability?

Similarly, the lovers always seem to project the best case scenario in terms of player development -

And the haters don't do this?

Ty Thomas is gonna be a what now? All the haters have him in the All Star game etc... practically HoF already.

I don't understand why perspective means you have to like the direction Isiah is going. We have no idea what his next move is. 3 years into his plan we still have to get rid of at least 40-50% of the roster, we still don't have a franchise talent or means to get one. We have a future center and PF. We have no PG, and are unsure about the SF and SG position and bench because we don't know who will be here a year from now.

When I look at the draft and free-agency of a rebuilding team I see them target a starting center, a starting PF a starting PG etc. I see us targeting role players because that's really all we can do with late round draft picks and MLE's.

Now Nixluva I am 100% on board that Isiah can make changes to his current direction. I don't think he's an idiot. But I do not understand how you can explain to me that this guy has a legit/cohesive plan. How many times do we have to change coaches and systems before someone admits that we need to change our current path all over the place path and focus. I don't care if the Lord himself is available if he doesn't fit the plan you let him go. Steve Francis and JJ are all you need to know that we make moves on the fly. One was targeted because the coach wanted him(possibly) not because he fit. The other was acquire because we desperately needed a center. This is not a plan. It is reactionary.

haters are not smart. just loud.

Posted by kam77:

Similarly, the lovers always seem to project the best case scenario in terms of player development -

And the haters don't do this?

Ty Thomas is gonna be a what now? All the haters have him in the All Star game etc... practically HoF already.

You're right it works on both sides. But I'm a hater/realist/Nixluva's worst nightmare so I thought I'd take the opportunity to let it be known that Nate Robinson is not the next Allen Iverson.

I'd In all seriousness, however, I do think this behavior is skewed towards the lovers because most of the talent evaluation done here is on our players.

I've heard guys criticize Marbs and Isiah and be called haters. Those same people that called the others haters will then turn around and say that Steve Francis is not a fit and needs to be traded right away.

What I've learned is that you are only a hater if you disagree or criticize certain players and GM's that the Lovers like. You can tear apart the Francis' and JJ's of the world and noone will call you any names because they do it themselves. Isn't that right Nixluva?

[Edited by - bippity10 on 04-04-2007 5:11 PM]

I am not making Thomas out to be an All-Star

He is two inches shorter than eddy put possesses a motor and energy which are important in this league he like to challenge shots and plays good weakside defense...

Thomas 75blks 241rbs 35ass 876min
Eddy 39blks 504rbs 60ass 2530min

Ty.Ch 129blks 901rbs 66ass
Sammy 146blks 667rbs 52ass
A. Jeff 101blks 722rbs 82ass
LA 73blks 312rbs 24ass

Thats 1,654 more minutes and and he has 36 less blks than TT. His stats are not very impressive, in fact they are close to the worst in the entire nba in two areas that really matter. And acting like Eddy has really made progress is downright stupid, because he is scoring the ball better taken a few hundred more shots.