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Why Isiah Really is a Loser! Injuries Hit Everyone Just as Hard!
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nixluva
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4/4/2007  1:23 PM
Posted by MS:

Yea you have a clue what your talking about

Other than quotes by Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudamire, Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas, Q, every single net player, Keynon Martin, pretty much every single guy to ever play with him has had something to say i am not going to search through the archives

You think this is actual PROOF that he's selfish on the court? Do you know that many of the all time great PG's were equally bigtime scorers and most didn't have any more assists than Steph. It's a perception thing. Scoring PG's are an unusual breed. It's not what the avg player would love to play with, cuz they would prefer to get the ball spread around more. The problem is that on many of the teams Steph has been on, spreading the ball wouldn't have helped the team cuz there weren't enough skilled guys on the team to finish off the plays. When Steph and Marion played together, marion took the most shots in his career, 17.2 FG attempts per game and 18.1 in their playoff season. Obviously Steph had no problem giving him the ball. Amare was rookie of the year while playing with Steph and he avg'd more shots than many young stars fresh out of high school avg'd. KG took 9.2 shots in his rookie year and Amare 10.1.
Who cares what KT, TT or KMart had to say? None of those guys issues had anything to do with Steph. They may have simply had a personal beef with him. We all know he's not a warm and cuddly guy. Perhaps if TT did his job and if KMart was actually healthy, they might have done more together. GO look at the facts 1st before you spew hate.
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djsunyc
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4/4/2007  1:25 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by MS:

Yea you have a clue what your talking about

Other than quotes by Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudamire, Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas, Q, every single net player, Keynon Martin, pretty much every single guy to ever play with him has had something to say i am not going to search through the archives

You think this is actual PROOF that he's selfish on the court? Do you know that many of the all time great PG's were equally bigtime scorers and most didn't have any more assists than Steph. It's a perception thing. Scoring PG's are an unusual breed. It's not what the avg player would love to play with, cuz they would prefer to get the ball spread around more. The problem is that on many of the teams Steph has been on, spreading the ball wouldn't have helped the team cuz there weren't enough skilled guys on the team to finish off the plays. When Steph and Marion played together, marion took the most shots in his career, 17.2 FG attempts per game and 18.1 in their playoff season. Obviously Steph had no problem giving him the ball. Amare was rookie of the year while playing with Steph and he avg'd more shots than many young stars fresh out of high school avg'd. KG took 9.2 shots in his rookie year and Amare 10.1.
Who cares what KT, TT or KMart had to say? None of those guys issues had anything to do with Steph. They may have simply had a personal beef with him. We all know he's not a warm and cuddly guy. Perhaps if TT did his job and if KMart was actually healthy, they might have done more together. GO look at the facts 1st before you spew hate.

but you also can't dismiss that pheonix, basically substituted steph with nash and went on to win 62 games. i mean, that's a DRASTIC difference. that's not like going from a 50 win team to 57 wins. that's going from 38 wins to 62 - that's like 2 completely different teams.
tkf
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4/4/2007  1:31 PM
MS, I find a lot of your criticism personal in nature regarding the knicks players. If that is your thing, then cool, but don't expect anyone to take that serious. But I would like to ask, if the knicks players are that bad and isiah is that bad, then isn't 31 wins overachieving considering the youth that is forced to play, the injuries and the Horrible players and coach as you so put it..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
nixluva
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4/4/2007  2:05 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by MS:

Yea you have a clue what your talking about

Other than quotes by Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudamire, Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas, Q, every single net player, Keynon Martin, pretty much every single guy to ever play with him has had something to say i am not going to search through the archives

You think this is actual PROOF that he's selfish on the court? Do you know that many of the all time great PG's were equally bigtime scorers and most didn't have any more assists than Steph. It's a perception thing. Scoring PG's are an unusual breed. It's not what the avg player would love to play with, cuz they would prefer to get the ball spread around more. The problem is that on many of the teams Steph has been on, spreading the ball wouldn't have helped the team cuz there weren't enough skilled guys on the team to finish off the plays. When Steph and Marion played together, marion took the most shots in his career, 17.2 FG attempts per game and 18.1 in their playoff season. Obviously Steph had no problem giving him the ball. Amare was rookie of the year while playing with Steph and he avg'd more shots than many young stars fresh out of high school avg'd. KG took 9.2 shots in his rookie year and Amare 10.1.
Who cares what KT, TT or KMart had to say? None of those guys issues had anything to do with Steph. They may have simply had a personal beef with him. We all know he's not a warm and cuddly guy. Perhaps if TT did his job and if KMart was actually healthy, they might have done more together. GO look at the facts 1st before you spew hate.

but you also can't dismiss that pheonix, basically substituted steph with nash and went on to win 62 games. i mean, that's a DRASTIC difference. that's not like going from a 50 win team to 57 wins. that's going from 38 wins to 62 - that's like 2 completely different teams.

The year before Steph was traded the Suns went 44-38 and lost in the 1st rd. to SA. Colangelo signed Steph to a huge extension just before the season started. They got off to a slow start and then they lost Amare on Dec. 5th. They fired Frank Johnson in Dec. and promoted D'Antoni. Steph had only played with Amare that year for about 18 games and then was was injured. At that time the team was 7-9 and not playing as well as they hoped. On Jan. 5, 2004 they traded Traded Steph. They had just committed to Steph as a key member of the team just 2 months before, so if there were any issues they didn't think they were that bad. However once they changed the Coach they decided to remold the team to fit his particular style of coaching and trading Steph and Penny would give them cap space and flexibility.

It's not true that all they did was switch out Nash for Steph. The thing is that they had to change the entire focus of the team to a different style and D'Antoni admits that he had not committed to the style they play now back when Steph was there. In fact D'Antoni only coached Steph for a few games as he became coach during the season and they traded him soon after. Nash came that summer and he came into camp with D'Antoni more prepared to install his system. Steph never had that chance.
MS
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4/4/2007  2:12 PM
they are not that bad if you play the right guys and use the right combos, i believe we would not be in this position had he not made the francis move, which basically killed all team chemistry. If he actually coached jamal, played balkman, gave frye touches and benched francis we would have been fine.

And how can you not be selfish if a great deal of the players bash your game after your gone. I don't care if your a scoring pg if your teammates trash you there is a reason for it. Kurt wasn't going to put up numbers in that system, they pretty much have a set starting five for the entire game and they only use a player here and there off the bench. Its about making the game easier and fostering an unselfish attitude that everyone buys into. The suns have a team orientated approach where everyone is looking for one another.
Pharzeone
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4/4/2007  2:36 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by MS:

Yea you have a clue what your talking about

Other than quotes by Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudamire, Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas, Q, every single net player, Keynon Martin, pretty much every single guy to ever play with him has had something to say i am not going to search through the archives

You think this is actual PROOF that he's selfish on the court? Do you know that many of the all time great PG's were equally bigtime scorers and most didn't have any more assists than Steph. It's a perception thing. Scoring PG's are an unusual breed. It's not what the avg player would love to play with, cuz they would prefer to get the ball spread around more. The problem is that on many of the teams Steph has been on, spreading the ball wouldn't have helped the team cuz there weren't enough skilled guys on the team to finish off the plays. When Steph and Marion played together, marion took the most shots in his career, 17.2 FG attempts per game and 18.1 in their playoff season. Obviously Steph had no problem giving him the ball. Amare was rookie of the year while playing with Steph and he avg'd more shots than many young stars fresh out of high school avg'd. KG took 9.2 shots in his rookie year and Amare 10.1.
Who cares what KT, TT or KMart had to say? None of those guys issues had anything to do with Steph. They may have simply had a personal beef with him. We all know he's not a warm and cuddly guy. Perhaps if TT did his job and if KMart was actually healthy, they might have done more together. GO look at the facts 1st before you spew hate.

but you also can't dismiss that pheonix, basically substituted steph with nash and went on to win 62 games. i mean, that's a DRASTIC difference. that's not like going from a 50 win team to 57 wins. that's going from 38 wins to 62 - that's like 2 completely different teams.

one of the most bogus pieces of info that has ever been out there to support Nash 1st MVP award that even Colangelo admitted so. Marbury led the Suns to playoffs in 2003 with an oft injured Penny Hardaway and a rookie Stoudamire, a younger version of Joe Johnson. That team finished with 44 wins and 38 losses and loss to SA in 6 close games in the 1st round who just btw, goes on to beat the Nets in the Finals. The following year Stoudamire was out for the majority of the beginning of the season and then traded Marbury and gutted their team and only won 29 games. And you are right they were particularlly two different teams because Colangelo went out and got totally different players. On another note, Nash before he arrived to PHX averaged only average 5.8 assist while Marbury in the league the same amount of years average 8 assist. Conlangelo was so impress with Nash his first two years he traded him to Dallas for Kidd. The knock on Nash was that he scored more than he passed, so Colangelo wanted to get a pure pg in Kidd. Nash didn't improve his assist ratio really until the 01 season from (he upped it to 7.1). So basically he didn't dramatically improve until he got to Phoenix after the Suns traded Marbury and Hardaway. BTW, the Suns success also interesting enough goes at the time when Shaq is traded to Miami, Rasheed is traded and the Blazers are broken up and Webber's injury and Webber is traded.(I don't take credit for that tibit, Rasheed Wallace actually pointed that out last year). But yeah that's a dramatic difference.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
MS
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4/4/2007  2:48 PM
Thats all well and good but fact of the matter is the suns won how many games last year without amare. The blazers and kings were no real threat when they got nash both teams were imploding. They did get to the conference finals without thomas/amare last year

Marbury did have a nice series against the spurs, he was abusin parker which no one should overlook, but he wanted leave minny because he was jealous of garnett, he got to jersey forced himself there and than alienated his teammate. Steph is his own worst enemy and always will be if he just played kept his mouth shut and didn't make bonehead decisions when the game is on the line he would get his praise. Kidd, Nash those guys dont say anything in the media they just play....
nixluva
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4/4/2007  3:05 PM
Posted by MS:

Thats all well and good but fact of the matter is the suns won how many games last year without amare. The blazers and kings were no real threat when they got nash both teams were imploding. They did get to the conference finals without thomas/amare last year

Marbury did have a nice series against the spurs, he was abusin parker which no one should overlook, but he wanted leave minny because he was jealous of garnett, he got to jersey forced himself there and than alienated his teammate. Steph is his own worst enemy and always will be if he just played kept his mouth shut and didn't make bonehead decisions when the game is on the line he would get his praise. Kidd, Nash those guys dont say anything in the media they just play....

PLEASE be honest about the time in NJ! They had record amounts off injuries and the team was never very well put together to begin with. I think this is part of the problem when looking at Steph's career. He hasn't been in enough good situations to really have an impact. Very few players can drag a team all by themselves if it's really bad. NJ was REALLY BAD and they also had too any injuries on top of that. Besides Steph who did they really have that you would consider a player you can win with? How has KG done without someone capable around him? AI didn't win much when his team wasn' very good. You can make that same comparison for just about any Good player. Kidd has VC and RJ and they aren't killing teams, why is that? It's not easy to win in this league.
MS
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4/4/2007  3:11 PM
They have embarrassed the Knicks, went to two finals with kidd and were going to a third the year the pistons won but kidd got injured in that series they were leading 3-2.

The Nets have been in the playoffs every year kidd has been there and he is older now if i am not mistaken.

If Jason Kidd is on the Knicks would they be in the playoffs the answer would be yes.

No one is debating that its not easy to win in this league but our record speaks for itself. 33, 23, and lets say 35 wins is more than fair for this year. Thats not exactly making a name for yourself.
nixluva
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4/4/2007  3:23 PM
Posted by MS:

They have embarrassed the Knicks, went to two finals with kidd and were going to a third the year the pistons won but kidd got injured in that series they were leading 3-2.

The Nets have been in the playoffs every year kidd has been there and he is older now if i am not mistaken.

If Jason Kidd is on the Knicks would they be in the playoffs the answer would be yes.

No one is debating that its not easy to win in this league but our record speaks for itself. 33, 23, and lets say 35 wins is more than fair for this year. Thats not exactly making a name for yourself.

Kidd has also had better players around him during that time. He hasn't been playing with the same kind of talent that Steph has had. i don't believe that just adding Kidd to this team would make them a playoff team. Heck he's got 2 All Stars with him now and they're only a few games ahead of us.
Pharzeone
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4/4/2007  3:24 PM
Posted by MS:

Thats all well and good but fact of the matter is the suns won how many games last year without amare. The blazers and kings were no real threat when they got nash both teams were imploding. They did get to the conference finals without thomas/amare last year

Marbury did have a nice series against the spurs, he was abusin parker which no one should overlook, but he wanted leave minny because he was jealous of garnett, he got to jersey forced himself there and than alienated his teammate. Steph is his own worst enemy and always will be if he just played kept his mouth shut and didn't make bonehead decisions when the game is on the line he would get his praise. Kidd, Nash those guys dont say anything in the media they just play....

You are right and wrong. Nash is a team guy. Kidd is a horrible team guy. Kidd ran his mouth so much in Dallas it was 10 times as worst as Marbury and Brown. You have a short memory. Remember the 3 Js and Toni Braxton and what got him in a Suns uniform. Off the court problems plagued Kidd in Phoenix complained about Frank Johnson alot. The domestic abuse was the icing got him moved again and the fact that he couldn't help bring the team back to the playoffs as well. Kidd has proven to be a bully in NJ. Got his coach that lead his team to two consecutive final appearances fired, armstrong the Nets into signing his buddy Mourning, killed KVH (Funny how no one gets on him about that just Marbury) in the public about the 2002 finals. Makes his wife and kid the center piece during 2002 Eastern Conference Finals and had the nerve to get mad with Employee # 8 and Boston when they responded back. Oh yeah the same wife he now is going through with the messy divorce. No he never gets involve with the press.

Nash is a good guy and I think he has helped the Suns but so has improved his play. I do find it interesting that players are not scoring more under Nash while his scoring has been steadily increasing. He is actually having a great season this year as compared to his previous 2 MVP years. I think it helps that Stoudamire has expanded his game and is a legit threat 18 feet out and Marion has shot the 3 with more consistency in years past (ugly shot still). But to dismiss the fact that the Suns under Nash success has no connection with the trading of Shaq, the breakup of the Blazers, the fall of Minn, the injury and trading of Webber is very short sided and bias.

Shaq traded before 2004-2005 season (Lakers w/l record prior to trade was
Wallace traded during the 2003-2004 season (Blazers need to be broken out since Wallace was traded during the 03-04 season, W/L 2003 50-32, 2004 41-41, 2005 27-55)

To point out the issue more Seattle, before Shaq and Wallace was traded finished the season with a record of 37-45 (2003-2004), after the trading of both players from their teams, the Sonics finished with 52-30 (2004-2005). The Kings did manage to win a similar amount of games without Webber but remember when Nash was on the Mavs (Dirk and Nash), they couldn't get past the Kings (Webber and Bibby). Kings were indeed factors to Nash.

I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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4/4/2007  3:27 PM
Posted by MS:

They have embarrassed the Knicks, went to two finals with kidd and were going to a third the year the pistons won but kidd got injured in that series they were leading 3-2.

The Nets have been in the playoffs every year kidd has been there and he is older now if i am not mistaken.

If Jason Kidd is on the Knicks would they be in the playoffs the answer would be yes.

No one is debating that its not easy to win in this league but our record speaks for itself. 33, 23, and lets say 35 wins is more than fair for this year. Thats not exactly making a name for yourself.

Now who is coming up with excuses? I give you a mulligan on that. Sidenote, everyone ages.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
MS
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4/4/2007  3:28 PM
In NJ his teammates included: KVH, Kittles, Gill, KMart, he had to deal with a lot of injuries it was a tough situation at times. Did have a few nice pieces. Steph was putting up about 23pts 8.5assists

KVH
98-99 21.8pts 8rbs 1.2blk
99-00 19.2pts 8.5rbs
00-01 17pts 7rbs

The year before Steph in NJ 43wins (Marburys three years 16, 21, 26) Enter Kidd with a healthy team which was huge and RJ a rookie 52wins.

His win total is bad, thats something that needs to be looked at (33, 23, 35) last three with the knicks, did finish ok his first year with the knicks.
MS
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4/4/2007  3:31 PM
RJ has never made an allstar team.

If you started this unit with kidd you would have been in the playoffs

Kidd, Crawford, Balkman, Lee, Curry

There is no doubt

The knicks have two of the best finishers in the league and curry puts it downb around the basket, Crawford would get open looks all night long and actually be effective because he would be shooting a in a set position.
Pharzeone
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4/4/2007  4:56 PM
Posted by MS:

RJ has never made an allstar team.

If you started this unit with kidd you would have been in the playoffs

Kidd, Crawford, Balkman, Lee, Curry

There is no doubt

The knicks have two of the best finishers in the league and curry puts it downb around the basket, Crawford would get open looks all night long and actually be effective because he would be shooting a in a set position.

That's your best point. If Kidd or Nash were on the Knicks instead of Marbury right now at this point would they be a playoff team. That's a great debate. I think with a Nash yes but not with Kidd. But I think Kidd is the better pg but can't score as effectively as Nash. So what I am saying is that this team still does not have a consistent outside shooter.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
newyorknewyork
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4/4/2007  6:28 PM
Kidd & Nash have been MVP type of players for there teams since they were traded to them. Marbury has only been MVP type for 1 season and that was when they won 44games.

If NJ didn't have Kidd they don't win. If Suns didn't have Nash they don't win. After Suns traded Marbury in january they lost a ton of games for the rest of the yr. Suns also added Q to the team & Barbosa, Joe Johnson, Stoudemire were all able to get a yr better. Plus they stlid Stoude to center, Marion to PF, Q SF, Joe Johnson to SG. So there was adjustments made. Nets added Todd Mac & Jefferson. Got Kittles, KVH, & Martin back healhy. When Marbury took over the Suns for Kidd. The suns also traded away most of there skilled vets like Uncle Cliff & Rodney Rodgers in order to rebuild. The vets would have been better for Marbury. But the youth was better for the future.

I also want to throw in that Minny didn't win 50games the season after Marbury was traded. As the following season that Marbury was traded was the lockout season. In which minny went 25-25. The season after that they won 50 games when KG was in his 4th season and they added more pieces to the minny teams since 2yrs earlier with Marbury. The arguement that Marbury had the same cast as Kidd & Nash yet still failed is a false one. As is the belief that you can just dump Marbury and automatically get better.

Yes Marbury has a lot of character flaws, which is well documented by Blueseats. And played a big part in the fact that he barley overachieved when he was in poor situations other than the time in pheniox because of these character flaws. But you have to add both this and that and make an objective look at Marbury's career. And not just say that Marbury only failed because of his character or that Marbury only failed because of his cast.

Curry gets ripped for being lazy, Frye gets ripped of being soft, Jefferies gets ripped for not being able to score at all, Crawford for being inconsistant. Q doesn't get ripped but misses a lot of time. Nate for being a knuckle head. Francis for being a ball hog. Yet Marbury gets ripped for not turning these guys to stars with elite PG skills and winning 50games a season. So does Marbury get credit for the positive work that Collins, Balkman, Lee, have done??
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
TrueBlue
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4/4/2007  6:31 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Kidd & Nash have been MVP type of players for there teams since they were traded to them. Marbury has only been MVP type for 1 season and that was when they won 44games.

If NJ didn't have Kidd they don't win. If Suns didn't have Nash they don't win. After Suns traded Marbury in january they lost a ton of games for the rest of the yr. Suns also added Q to the team & Barbosa, Joe Johnson, Stoudemire were all able to get a yr better. Plus they stlid Stoude to center, Marion to PF, Q SF, Joe Johnson to SG. So there was adjustments made. Nets added Todd Mac & Jefferson. Got Kittles, KVH, & Martin back healhy. When Marbury took over the Suns for Kidd. The suns also traded away most of there skilled vets like Uncle Cliff & Rodney Rodgers in order to rebuild. The vets would have been better for Marbury. But the youth was better for the future.

I also want to throw in that Minny didn't win 50games the season after Marbury was traded. As the following season that Marbury was traded was the lockout season. In which minny went 25-25. The season after that they won 50 games when KG was in his 4th season and they added more pieces to the minny teams since 2yrs earlier with Marbury. The arguement that Marbury had the same cast as Kidd & Nash yet still failed is a false one. As is the belief that you can just dump Marbury and automatically get better.

Yes Marbury has a lot of character flaws, which is well documented by Blueseats. And played a big part in the fact that he barley overachieved when he was in poor situations other than the time in pheniox because of these character flaws. But you have to add both this and that and make an objective look at Marbury's career. And not just say that Marbury only failed because of his character or that Marbury only failed because of his cast.

Curry gets ripped for being lazy, Frye gets ripped of being soft, Jefferies gets ripped for not being able to score at all, Crawford for being inconsistant. Q doesn't get ripped but misses a lot of time. Nate for being a knuckle head. Francis for being a ball hog. Yet Marbury gets ripped for not turning these guys to stars with elite PG skills and winning 50games a season. So does Marbury get credit for the positive work that Collins, Balkman, Lee, have done??


So I guess what you are saying is that ISAYUGH hasn't added any pieces for Marbury to play with since he's been here or Marbury doesn't make the pieces he's brought here better.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
newyorknewyork
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4/4/2007  6:52 PM
Not really.

As I am not one thats ripping the team everyday or Marbury everyday. But I am saying that the same guys that rip Isiah for creating a flawed structured team. Go on to rip Marbury for not making it all work and winning 50 games with elite PG skills. It kinda sounds unfair don't you think.

Briggs made a point yesterday that if we don't do the Ariza trade & sign Jefferies. We make the playoffs.

Others say that if we don't trade for Curry & just draft Bynum keep our draft picks and don't do the Ariza trade we are in the playoffs right now.

So bottom line in a lot of the posters line of thinking. With more balance in skills & more balance in talent we would have had the pieces along with Marbury to be successful.
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4/4/2007  7:07 PM
MS Don't forget about the lack of respect that the Knicks get from the officials even though the Knicks are attempting 29.3 attempts per game (5th in the league) and Marbury is averaging 5.2 attempts per game, nearly right on par with his career average. Is there a conspiracy against the Knicks or is Isiah just plain stupid whiner? I think its the latter.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Pharzeone
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4/4/2007  7:54 PM
Posted by nyever:

MS Don't forget about the lack of respect that the Knicks get from the officials even though the Knicks are attempting 29.3 attempts per game (5th in the league) and Marbury is averaging 5.2 attempts per game, nearly right on par with his career average. Is there a conspiracy against the Knicks or is Isiah just plain stupid whiner? I think its the latter.

What's the issue though. All coaches do it. YOu have some players who always feel that they got foul or some players who never believe they fouled a single player in the league. Hell the Mavericks whined the whole season about not fouling Wade during the Finals. Its gamemanship. I mean it goes on like all the time and now since Thomas does it and gets fined its like whining. What's worst Thomas criticizing officials for not giving his player more fouls or JVG talking about NBA conspiracies during a 1st round playoff game because the Mavericks are beating them.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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