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When you strip away the fat here is what you have
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oohah
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3/27/2007  9:47 PM
Blue,

Isn't there a difference between the style you want to play and the style you have to play or the style you are better at?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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nixluva
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3/27/2007  10:01 PM
Posted by oohah:

Blue,

Isn't there a difference between the style you want to play and the style you have to play or the style you are better at?

oohah

It doesn't matter to him oohah, he's much more interested in trying to make things seem dire and hopeless. It doesn't suit his argument to make sense. He wants to try and stand on symantecs to somehow prove his point. Isiah made the right decision to try and steer the team in this direction. He hasn't been perfect with everything he's decided to do, but if we continue to refine the roster to fit more with the way he's taking the team, it will bring results.

WE KNOW we need better perimeter play, so i'm positive he's going to try and address that need. We KNOW we need for Curry to get better at passing out of the post, so I expect that they'll keep working with him on that. He's added Morris, another post player so we can continue to have a presence when Curry's not in there. With Lee in there to backup either player, it should work out very well. I think the thread's premise that we're worried about year 4, 5 and 6 at this point is a bit over the top. WHY do we need to worry about the make up of the team now as it relates to what the team will be in year 4, 5 & 6? We're surely going to see some changes this summer, so who knows what's gonna happen.

BlueSeats
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3/27/2007  10:03 PM
Posted by nixluva:

es·tab·lish [i-stab-lish] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object)
1. to found, institute, build, or bring into being on a firm or stable basis: to establish a university; to establish a medical practice.
2. to install or settle in a position, place, business, etc.: to establish one's child in business.

This year for the 1st time we are most definitely a post up team. That is our primary attack and secondary attack. Teams cheat in on us, double and triple team the post BECAUSE we can hurt them there if they DON'T, thus we've established ourselves as a post up team. Isiah is continuing to shape the team in this direction. We also look to attack the rim as much as possible, pound the boards hard and get to the FT Line, which we do at a high rate. Now we need to perfect this. To continue to refine the offense and the roster to fit this style.


That's probably a pretty fair assessment of the course Isiah changed to after abandoning his full-court, up-tempo, motion offense that you exalted until it failed.

Currently the post-up offense is failing us. If we want to consider it "established," by default, I guess we can.

What we'll be trying to establish this time next year is anybody's guess.

BTW, does it mean anything that Marbury, Crawford and Q (our backcourt) outscores Curry, Frye and Lee (our C/PFs) on average 46.8 to 39.9 per game?

What about that Curry actually averages less FGA per game than Crawford and the same number as Marbury, while virtually no post plays are run for anyone else on the team?

BlueSeats
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3/27/2007  10:06 PM
Posted by oohah:

Blue,

Isn't there a difference between the style you want to play and the style you have to play or the style you are better at?

oohah


Probably, but could you elaborate?

And is the distinction actually relevant as to whether we've actually established a style or not?
BlueSeats
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3/27/2007  10:08 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by oohah:

Blue,

Isn't there a difference between the style you want to play and the style you have to play or the style you are better at?

oohah

It doesn't matter to him oohah, he's much more interested in trying to make things seem dire and hopeless. It doesn't suit his argument to make sense. He wants to try and stand on symantecs to somehow prove his point. Isiah made the right decision to try and steer the team in this direction. He hasn't been perfect with everything he's decided to do, but if we continue to refine the roster to fit more with the way he's taking the team, it will bring results.

WE KNOW we need better perimeter play, so i'm positive he's going to try and address that need. We KNOW we need for Curry to get better at passing out of the post, so I expect that they'll keep working with him on that. He's added Morris, another post player so we can continue to have a presence when Curry's not in there. With Lee in there to backup either player, it should work out very well. I think the thread's premise that we're worried about year 4, 5 and 6 at this point is a bit over the top. WHY do we need to worry about the make up of the team now as it relates to what the team will be in year 4, 5 & 6? We're surely going to see some changes this summer, so who knows what's gonna happen.



Actually I'm struggling to establish what the style of play is that we've "established."



djsunyc
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3/27/2007  10:11 PM
this is the style of play - have jamal give it to eddy. if he can't, scramble and go one and one and take a shot with the shot clock winding down. now that jamal is hurt, we're not giving it to eddy, then we scramble and go one and one and take a shot with the shot clock winding down.

a defensive big man is necessary but i'm now more convinced that just as important, if not more so, is a point guard that is actually a point guard.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 03-27-2007 10:13 PM]
BasketballJones
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3/27/2007  10:16 PM
https:// It's not so hard.
nixluva
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3/28/2007  12:11 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

this is the style of play - have jamal give it to eddy. if he can't, scramble and go one and one and take a shot with the shot clock winding down. now that jamal is hurt, we're not giving it to eddy, then we scramble and go one and one and take a shot with the shot clock winding down.

a defensive big man is necessary but i'm now more convinced that just as important, if not more so, is a point guard that is actually a point guard.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 03-27-2007 10:13 PM]

There's really nothing wrong with Steph and we're missing Jamal. To me it's more about who he's passing to. If Frye passes up open shots and Francis does the same that would mess up ANY PG you try to add to the mix. 1st you have to fix those problems. I believe we'll see some changes this summer that will go towards fixing that problem. Obviously guys like Balkman and Collins need to improve, along with Jared. Now I do believe that one of Isiah's moves will be for a PG. I also think Collins will eventually be able to handle that duty for limited periods of time. I'm pretty sure that he's going to draft a SF. So all is not bleak just because we're not yet where we want to be.

Granted the Knicks currently aren't executing well. This doesn't mean that the course is wrong or that it won't get better as the team continues to play this way. There's also a certain degree of patience that needs to be displayed. Right now as you all know we have been playing without the benefit of 2 of our top perimeter scorers and our top rebounder. So we've been struggling to replace 42 points, 21 rebs and 8.5 asts a night and on top of that they also happen to be some of our best FT shooters. That right there is a huge problem for this team. I don't judge the success of this course based on the end of this season when clearly we haven't been able to run the offense as well. We went from avg'ing 100 pts a game to under 90.

The team wasn't perfect to begin with. It's not like this was a finished product which seems to be the implication by some of you. We just added what amounts to an extra draft pick and we still have the upcoming draft. Who knows what Isiah will be able to do this summer to help this team going forward. The important thing is that he's settled on a style of play and now he knows better what players need to go and what kind of players he needs to bring in.

Bippity10
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3/28/2007  7:54 AM
Again, you always try to change the issue by somehow claiming that everyone is impatient and just doesn't understand that young guys need to mature and develop. I say this is simply a falsehood used to change the issue.

I am as well, if not more aware(because I do it every season myself) than you what is needed to develop young players. The question isn't about the young guys developing. It is about what is Isiah's plan? The offense and emphasis was clearly on the 3 guard line-up at the beginning of the season. Then when Curry got going it went to a post up game. Now that Curry is struggling against the double teams(which are never going to stop for the rest of his career) we are back to focusing on the guards. Now this is adjustment on the fly and I can appreciate that and understand it was completely necessary by Isiah the coach.

The question again comes back to Isiah the GM. And the reason maybe I am very skeptical and you are not is that I was pointing out these events during the summer. You could look at the roster and it was entirely clear what the issues would be and are. To build around Curry we need certain types of players. But when I look at the roster that Isiah has assembled(after you trim the fat) there is not one of these players on it. Jamal can get him the ball but there is no real distributor. There is no shot blocker or jumpshooter. No perimeter defense. Why can I see that this needed to be addressed two years ago and Isiah hasn't. And the truth is that he has. He knows all the things we need. But he is sidetracked by the need to fill the seats while trying to rebuild. Balkman was a pick to help with today's weaknesses, not to build a team. David Lee is a great player. But if his defense doesn't improve or we dont' somehow obtain a shotblocking SF, David and Curry will be a liability as well as a positive next to each other.

Going forward we are developing a similar roster to the one we have today, just younger. this post is not meant to say we are doomed anymore than the obvious questions I asked during the preseason. The questions that you said were negative but as we are seeing right now were very relevant. You will find in time that the above question is relevant as well. Will Isiah change his style or continue down the path of picking the same type of team that isn't winning today, but is younger. Will he address the issues? Will he begin to make effecient moves? Or will we see him tear up the roster for the 4th time in 4 years and the 5th time in 5 years all the while calling it a plan. If idiot fans like me can recognize issues with our backcourt, or ballhandling or defense in preseason and ask questions about it. I don't want my GM being surprised when those problems come to fruition. I do not trust this man to build my team. He can caoch it, but his building is one smoke screen after another.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 03-28-2007 08:00 AM]

[Edited by - bippity10 on 03-28-2007 08:01 AM]
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Bippity10
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3/28/2007  7:59 AM
Look at the roster above and tell me what you see honestly. There is no right or wrong answer to this. You don't have to be afraid to say you see a team building and you don't have to be afraid to say that you don't really see a team. And you don't have to start the smoke screen by saying Isiah has a plan stop being pessimistic. It's simply a question. What do you see in that young roster.

I see a Center with immense potential that is going to lead us to the future. IN the meantime we have to worry about whether he is motivated to do so.

I see no PG

I see no jumpshooters to take the pressure off. Adding one in the draft will not alleviate the issue any more than adding Balkman and Jeffries improved the defense when 10 othe guys didn't play it.

I see no distributors, but I do see a lot of guys that are great at getting shots for themselvse.

I see a solid rebounding team taking shape.

I see no potential shotblocking.

I see a team that has a myriad of issues that need to be fixed. Issues that have not been addressed in 3 years because our GM is still building around Marbs to win today and show evident progress while also trying to rebuild. I want this guy to focus on the task at hand so that 6 years into the plan we aren't starting over again.

THE YOUNG TEAM ASSEMBLED ABOVE HAS THE SAME EXACT ISSUES THAT YOUR CURRENT TEAM HAS TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Edited by - bippity10 on 03-28-2007 08:04 AM]
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TheGame
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3/28/2007  8:29 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

Again, you always try to change the issue by somehow claiming that everyone is impatient and just doesn't understand that young guys need to mature and develop. I say this is simply a falsehood used to change the issue.

I am as well, if not more aware(because I do it every season myself) than you what is needed to develop young players. The question isn't about the young guys developing. It is about what is Isiah's plan? The offense and emphasis was clearly on the 3 guard line-up at the beginning of the season. Then when Curry got going it went to a post up game. Now that Curry is struggling against the double teams(which are never going to stop for the rest of his career) we are back to focusing on the guards. Now this is adjustment on the fly and I can appreciate that and understand it was completely necessary by Isiah the coach.

The question again comes back to Isiah the GM. And the reason maybe I am very skeptical and you are not is that I was pointing out these events during the summer. You could look at the roster and it was entirely clear what the issues would be and are. To build around Curry we need certain types of players. But when I look at the roster that Isiah has assembled(after you trim the fat) there is not one of these players on it. Jamal can get him the ball but there is no real distributor. There is no shot blocker or jumpshooter. No perimeter defense. Why can I see that this needed to be addressed two years ago and Isiah hasn't. And the truth is that he has. He knows all the things we need. But he is sidetracked by the need to fill the seats while trying to rebuild. Balkman was a pick to help with today's weaknesses, not to build a team. David Lee is a great player. But if his defense doesn't improve or we dont' somehow obtain a shotblocking SF, David and Curry will be a liability as well as a positive next to each other.

Going forward we are developing a similar roster to the one we have today, just younger. this post is not meant to say we are doomed anymore than the obvious questions I asked during the preseason. The questions that you said were negative but as we are seeing right now were very relevant. You will find in time that the above question is relevant as well. Will Isiah change his style or continue down the path of picking the same type of team that isn't winning today, but is younger. Will he address the issues? Will he begin to make effecient moves? Or will we see him tear up the roster for the 4th time in 4 years and the 5th time in 5 years all the while calling it a plan. If idiot fans like me can recognize issues with our backcourt, or ballhandling or defense in preseason and ask questions about it. I don't want my GM being surprised when those problems come to fruition. I do not trust this man to build my team. He can caoch it, but his building is one smoke screen after another.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 03-28-2007 08:00 AM]

[Edited by - bippity10 on 03-28-2007 08:01 AM]

Bippity10, as always, you make good points. This is how I see the next year going. IT's plan is to use these assets to get the two way players that we need on this team. Frye, Curry, Lee, Crawford, Morris, Balkman, Nate, and Collins all have trade value. Some a little, some a lot. IT is going to draft the best SG or defensive PF he can find in the draft (unless another solid prospect drops unexpectedly) and then he is going to cut Francis this summer. He will work on the game plan to better fit our personnel and work on the players in training camp to help them improve on defense and with handling the double teams. He is going to play out the early part of the season, the team will start better than it did last year, and IT is going to start thinking it is time to make a move. He is going to try to identify that star player we are missing, perhaps a Gasol, KG, O' Neal, and he is going to put together a package of players and try to get a deal done. Where the Knicks go from there is going to be dependent on how good a deal IT can make, which I know is not an encouraging fact.

Like I said before, this team beats itself more than it gets beaten. Eliminating mistake prone players like Francis will be a start. Working with Curry on passing out of the doubleteam will also help. We are at a point now where we cannot rebuild, we have to make 1 or 2 trades to consolidate our talent and bring on some 2-way players and then ride it out and hope that our young players improve individually and as a team. It will either work or it won't, but there is no way IT can do a complete rebuild after spending 4 years rebuilding.
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Bippity10
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3/28/2007  9:28 AM
see my definition of rebuilding is different than others. I don't call rebuilding going with all young players. I think rebuilding is anytime you change the core of the roster. In my view we have rebuilt 3 times under Isiah so far.

I think it's clear to all that at least 3 of the current group of young guys will probably have to be jettisoned to help us build another core around Eddy or whoever we finally decide to build around. And that's fin. I just wanted Isiah to realize that eventually he has to decide what type of team he wants to build and find a PG, SG, SF, PF and center and tehn a bench for that team 3 or 4 years from now, instead of focusing on role players and late draft picks to fill Stephon Marbury's team needs.

Decide who will be here 3 years from now and fill in the gaps. If Eddie is the only guarantee than target and get in position to acquire the best fit for Eddie and whatever position is available. Wasting money on role players and old lazy centers is just asinine and cannot be excused.
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Bonn1997
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3/28/2007  6:15 PM
When I saw the title, I thought this was gonna be a thread about Curry
When you strip away the fat here is what you have

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