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Are white people afraid of the NBA ?
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TheGame
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3/21/2007  3:27 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

To me it's not that difficult to understand. Many different types of people are potential fans. Women, Men, Young, old, white, hispanic, black, etc. But the NBA focuses most of their marketing to the hip hop realm. Think about it, Tim Duncan one of the best players of our generation. A black guy is not marketed because he does not fit what the NBA is pushing. So the only people that end up being interested are those that can relate to what the NBA is selling. That's not racism that's poor marketing.

Listen, I'm black. I love hip hop and fit into the 18-35 group they sell to. I fit the profile they are selling to. But I am even turned off by a lot of the league. Seeing a man in braids and tattoos is not offensive or fearful for me. Seeing a guy in long baggy pants is not offensive to me in the least. I grew up in a neighborhood that is at the cutting edge of what the NBA is marketing. But I also understand when you have a corporate event such as a press conference, big all-star game, charity events etc, you are not just appealing to your narrow idea of fans. YOu are trying to appeal to everyone. And if those cats can't put a suit on for an hour to show that they can appeal to more than one type of person than they are going to lose that person. That's a fact.

We keep bringing up the NHL not beign criticized. But they aren't being criticized because noone in the country cares. They have done for decades what the NBa has done for the past 15 years. They marketed the sport to one type of person. And the rest of the US ignores it.

I get so sick of people saying that if one person doesn't like hip hop or what hip hop stands for then they are racist. This is such nonsense. I don't like wearing a suit to work, am I racist? People like what they like. And if you have a product to sell to them you have to appeal to their wants and desires. If you don't tough luck.

Market the stars, market the teams, market to the hip hoppers, market to the corporate suits and perform like every ohter business is forced to and stop the whining.

Bip you make good points. I see two groups that the NBA is trying to cater to. You have the younger hip-hop crowd that goes to the games, wears the jerseys and buys the sneakers for companies, such as Nike, who then promote the players in their ads. You then have the high-end and corporate fans that buy the front row tickets and the luxury boxes and pay for naming rights and other things. So you have this dichotomy of interest that the NBA is trying to cater to at the same time. The problem with marketing is that if you are trying to push products, the younger age groups are the ones buying the jerseys and sneakers and they identify with players with street cred, while the corporate types want a clean cut player like a Grant Hill or Tim duncan to participate in their corporate funtions. But IMO it still all goes back to preconceived stereotypes about the black athlete. Simply because a player might have tatoos does not mean that he is a bad person or cannot be a good spokeman for a corporation. There are no more thugs or problems in the NBA than in any other sport in America, so where do the perceptions come from?
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Bippity10
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3/21/2007  4:06 PM
See I dont' think people are afraid of tattoos and braids and that stuff. I think it's blown a little out of proportion. I think it's a lot more obvious than that. I think it's the gangsta image that corporate america has pushed and we have accepted as the face of rap. We embrace the thug life. This is what rap has become. Blacks haven't become this, but rap has. Lot's of people are turned off by this, including me(a life long rap fan). So when you market that today you push away the fan that doesn't want to see it.

There is a middle ground we just don't target it because we live on the extremes in this country. The hip hop crowd is loud but people that live that culture are in the minority in america. Many corporte suits are far removed from the hip hop culture. But many are not as far removed as we think. Because we stereotype them as much as they stereotype the hip hop generation. If you target the middle ground. If you promote those that bring good to society. If you associate those rappers that promote the positive side of life you will hit that market. If you cater to the extreme, which also includes extreme violence, misogyny and racism you are bound to turn off the crowd.

My brother is now 22 years old. He wears baggy pants, brim to the side, big asse sneakers, baggy shirts etc. My brother is a walking billboard for the hip hop nation. But he's smart enough to understand that when he goes into a place of business, if he is not selling hip hop products it's time to put on a suit and sell himself to the masses. He understands it's not racism. It's that at home there is one set of norms that he follows and at work there is another set of norms to follow. He adapts and appeals to all. He's an international business major. When he travels overseas he will learn to adapt to a new set of norms because he understands life isn't just about where he grew up.

the NBA appealed to it's players and their wants more than they appealed to the wants of the majority of the fans. They have lost the corporate crowd(who were just as big of fans as the rest of us. Money doesn't make you not like bball. That's a stereotype). And they are quickly losing the middle ground.
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simrud
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3/21/2007  5:32 PM
First of all, is not the majority of the NFL black? And are not NFL players notorious for getting in trouble with the law? Yet the NFL is probably the most popular league in US. I don't think "white people", whatever that might mean, are afraid of the NBA because it is black.

Anybody who does not partake in the gang related extreme of the rap culture simply cannot relate to those who do. I used to listen to rap back in the day, and I don't anymore. You know why? Because they have not come out with anything outside of cars/cars/guns/hoes/drugs as a concept for a song in years. I know there are much less popular, underground MCs who do some great work and actually rap about relevant issues that we have today, but they are not the ones who sell multi platinum albums.

Like most already said, its the marketing stupid. The NBA is marketing itself to what it thinks the "Hip-Hop" generation sees itself as. And in reality, very few people see themselves as gangsters by the time they are in their 20's.

The fact that the NBA is loosing popularity is a testament to both black and white people in a way. Neither subculture considers what the NBA is marketing, or the gangster rap load of crap, to have anything to do with itself.

Oh, and as far as the most popular sport in the world, that would be soccer, no contest.
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Marv
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3/21/2007  5:40 PM
how much of this do you think is influened by the fact that the quality of hoop in the league is not real good right now? it makes people focus on a lot of things that are incidental to the game.

in the 2nd half of 70's the league went through a real downturn in quality and a lot of peole attributed it to coke, partying, a lack of discipline in society, etc. the popularity of the league went way down. all of a sudden magic and bird arrive, some amazing basketball is played, and the sport becomes wildly popular again.

once the playoffs start and the quality of the games go way up i don't think yoi hear so much noise about the image of the league. but during the regular season we have seen a lot of dog games and lousy ball being played. maybe that fuels some of the chatter.
Bippity10
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3/21/2007  6:15 PM
Posted by Marv:

how much of this do you think is influened by the fact that the quality of hoop in the league is not real good right now? it makes people focus on a lot of things that are incidental to the game.

in the 2nd half of 70's the league went through a real downturn in quality and a lot of peole attributed it to coke, partying, a lack of discipline in society, etc. the popularity of the league went way down. all of a sudden magic and bird arrive, some amazing basketball is played, and the sport becomes wildly popular again.

once the playoffs start and the quality of the games go way up i don't think yoi hear so much noise about the image of the league. but during the regular season we have seen a lot of dog games and lousy ball being played. maybe that fuels some of the chatter.

I think the level of play has gone down as a result of how the game is marketed. When JOrdan was dominating the league the focus was on his 50 pt games and dunks. The focus was Michael vs. the Knicks. Michael vs. the NBA. A generation of players grew up thinking scoring was the key to fame. Then they got to the NBA and the NBA owners and execs handed guys like Stevie and Steph and Darius and Stackhouse and Koncak and Donyell, and all the rest, billion dollar contracts before they won anything. Players were being rewarded for scoring and dunking. What was lost in the marketing was that Michael Jordan was the best one on one defender in the league. The best off the ball defender in the league. The best shot blocker at his position. The best rebounder at his position. A great passer. A great foul shooter. A great mid range jumpshooter. A great post player. The best leader. A bastard, but a great teammate at the same time. All this was forgotten and all the league saw was dunks and one on one moves. Playground ball. The NBA marketed this with great success. High school kids see dollar signs as a reward for great offense. Not as a reward for being the best and helping your team win.

We are witnessing the result of that marketing. Now the NBa is catching on. But the generation between Patrick and the next wave(Lebron and co) has really lowered the bar. And apologists from everywhere have made excuses for their showmanship, lack of effort and selfish play for years. It took a trouncing or two from the Europeans to rouse us from the slumber. But I don't think we've completely awakened. Half our league still things there is only one side to the game. Half our league still thinks coaches are a nuisance. And the league is still marketing to the lowest common denominator. It's changing, but changing slowly.

Tim Duncan and Shaquille should have been the poster boys for this league for a decade just like Magic/Larry/Michael were for a couple decades. Instead the league searched for the "next Michael Jordan" for too long and marketed the Franchises and the thugs and the guys with 14 kids for too long. Now we are reaping what we sow in terms of play.
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Allanfan20
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3/21/2007  7:01 PM
Tim Duncan and Shaquille should have been the poster boys for this league for a decade just like Magic/Larry/Michael were for a couple decades. Instead the league searched for the "next Michael Jordan" for too long and marketed the Franchises and the thugs and the guys with 14 kids for too long. Now we are reaping what we sow in terms of play.

Just remember, these great players that come around are great, b/c their cannot be "Nexts" of them. Everyone is known for their different things. We never got another Wilt, Clyde, Oscar, Russel, Shaq, Magic, MJ, Kareem and so on, b/c every one was too unique. Not one of them were coddled through their childhoods and adolescents the way LeBron probably was. I read a book and Jordan couldn't even get a date.

We treat our great athletes like they are gifts from Gods, in this day and age, yet we don't even take a look at our own gifts at times. Big problem there, and I think as American society has changed over the years, so has the NBA because that's what I think the NBA is basically a reflection of. Both need to change in my mind.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
knixphan
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3/21/2007  7:34 PM
Agree with Bip, Sim, Allan, Nalod, nyk....Just about everyone!

One note to add, in a Chris-Rock-y fashion... It does make me cringe sometimes to see that 'Jordan-to-Artest' culture gap in action. I think it goes right back to Chris' famous comparison of the divide within Afro-Amer. culture. I'm black, had a similar upbringing to 'Everybody hates Chris', and I percieve a difference - even in the context of 'brawling, for example...

Compare the last two NBA melees (Indy, Denver) with the famous 90's fights... Knicks-Bulls (Harper, Starks vs. whoever) or Knicks-Heat (JVG, LJ, PJ Brown, Ward) - and somehow even the fights themselves seem a bit more embarassing now with combatants like Jackson or Melo... Is that just me? I was more proud to discuss the 90's fights with my white colleagues than I am now... Even a bit proud (?)

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Marv
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3/21/2007  8:06 PM
bip good post. we were really blessed to have been able to see jordan play.

i'll tell u though when I watch wade and lebron I see guys cut from the same cloth. and chris paul is something extra special too.
playa2
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3/21/2007  8:53 PM
Shouldn't the blame really be put on DAVID "the don" Stern ?

He and NBA owners promoted and rewarded individualism in a "team sport" starting with Micheal Jordan.

They league bought into this pay without seeing production scheme, now tell me what other corporation does this?

Kids came around to realize that making espn highlites can get your family out of the hood pronto, not learning how to play the game(thank you espn).

So the product we all see is based upon owners and the commissioner looking at dollar signs and not the "true development" of a league overall.

This is why they there's a strong push to market euro players now who are known to be fundamentally sound, but they have a reason to be. Euros can play professionally at 16 yrs of age and get paid like tony parker did.

Stern and the boys sold out the NBA and now wants everything to change with stricter rules. The money that owners make now is much more than when bird , magic and MJ played.
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BigSm00th
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3/21/2007  10:28 PM
i think red america is afraid of the nba
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Nalod
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3/21/2007  10:59 PM
Stern is both a hero and goat when it comes to the marketing.

Promoting the star has been very lucrative and jordan despite his nervous break down carried it very well.

But like most business models you have ebbs and flows and it depends on the individual.

Its not about the "next Jordan" cuz we basically had it in Kobe. The immaturity of the new generation of superstar has hurt the league.

Support the "team" and make it the star? Its the NFL model now. Same for the NHL.

Hockey does not translate well on TV. Its awful. But live its a great sport to behold. In Canada its more of cult. They play it and live it.

In US, its very expensive to keep a kid on the ice but its got a very strong following amung the kids.

Not like hoop!
arkrud
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3/22/2007  12:02 AM
Just off Rangers-Flyers game at the Garden. Fantastic!!!
Yep. It was a fight. Ranger Orr hit one the Flyers player and send him to hospital.
Both get 5 min major and thats all. All fair - face-to-face fight.
No doubt Hockey is the game number one in Jersy and Phily. Bascetball... hmm.. Unlikely.
So why I am not afraid of NHL face-to-face fight and is disgusted about NBA suker-punching, browles, and stuff. Because it is not real Man things.
All the thug/gung stuff, tatues, chanes, etc. is just a way to be kids forever.
It's not about the color - it's about not being a Man. I can see any hockey player seving in Iraq, Afganistan and I am sure they will do just well. Most of NBA players? I have serious problem imagine this.
This guys suppouse to be a role models for boys (black, white, any) but instead they show the example how NOT to be a Man being rich and ignorant joke instead.
I have no problems with HIP-HOP culture. But I don't think it will surviwe more that one generation. Nothing to remember and nothing to gain.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
BRIGGS
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3/22/2007  12:31 AM
Posted by arkrud:

Just off Rangers-Flyers game at the Garden. Fantastic!!!
Yep. It was a fight. Ranger Orr hit one the Flyers player and send him to hospital.
Both get 5 min major and thats all. All fair - face-to-face fight.
No doubt Hockey is the game number one in Jersy and Phily. Bascetball... hmm.. Unlikely.
So why I am not afraid of NHL face-to-face fight and is disgusted about NBA suker-punching, browles, and stuff. Because it is not real Man things.
All the thug/gung stuff, tatues, chanes, etc. is just a way to be kids forever.
It's not about the color - it's about not being a Man. I can see any hockey player seving in Iraq, Afganistan and I am sure they will do just well. Most of NBA players? I have serious problem imagine this.
This guys suppouse to be a role models for boys (black, white, any) but instead they show the example how NOT to be a Man being rich and ignorant joke instead.
I have no problems with HIP-HOP culture. But I don't think it will surviwe more that one generation. Nothing to remember and nothing to gain.

I think some of this culture has been carried away and will come to an end. I usually don't care what someone does--but I will say using your body as a drawing board looks real low-class. All of these guys in the NBA make a lot of money and with that comes a responsibility. I don't remember guys like Larry Bird Magic Johnson Mike Jordan Karl Malone drawing all over themselves--they knew how to hold themselves and had class. No one is perfect--and some of these guys are going to PAY when they are older and they look like FREAKS with their bodies ravaged by this stuff. This doesn't just apply to any particular race--I see plenty of females with tatoos--as a father---my son and daughters--if I'm still on this Earth--although I love them with all of my heart---if I saw something like this--I would give my money and home to my wife to go to charity. I don't think that will happen--were tight here--but where the F were all the parents who let this get out of control???? All of this stuff about homosexuals-etc.. this rights that right--I know it's genetic and I dont care what they personally do--but a family is a man and a woman--God made it that way--and people who may be gay don't have the *right* to say otherwise. I dont think governments should *reward* gay with the same rights that married people have--no way. Sorry--two gay men should NOT be allowed to have a kid--neither two women--it's not fair to the kid no matter how good of a parent they may be--it's always skewed. Morals went to heck in the last 15-20 years.
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playa2
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3/22/2007  10:11 AM
Posted by BigSm00th:

i think red america is afraid of the nba

A friend of mine Ralpie called me at a few weeks ago and said he had to put the discipline his own son lil Ralph for calling him "son" one too many times. I wanted to see it as just disrespect, but I know my man Ralph..."white kids should be talking white". We grew up together and he will tell me in a minute..."If little Mike has posters of Paris Hilton, Limp Bizkit, Lindsy Lohan and Brad Pitt posters in his room or a Olsen twins wallpaper on the computer it would be ok . But his son has 50 Cent, Lebron James, Beyonce, Buffy The Body and The Rock on the Wall and I don't see it as a big deal but Ralphie's ready to call a family meeting? Where are the white people in this freakin house. He tells me "".

What the @#@# is this"?

I really do not think it is just the NBA. It is rap music, fashion, the integration of "real blacks" on TV and in movies that middle america are trying to get their kids to avoid.




JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
jazz74
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3/22/2007  11:46 AM
i don't think it is a question of whether white america is afraid of the nba as much as if the nba generates the same excitement like before. as i can recollect, the nba in the 80's and 90's had more fights and thuggery than today. remember the pistons getting into fights with the celtics, philly and la? they were brutal fights with brutal fouls. lordan got in his fair share of fisticuffs, during practice ( kerr) and in games( miller). so you can't say that it is because of the "thug" image. it happens when you have some underpriveledge kids, no matter what the race, playing a passionate game and showing emotion the only way they know how. then give them multimillions all of the sudden still doesn't change the way they live or the way they were raised. product of the environment. obviously, there are a LOT of nba players who act responsible and know not to get in trouble even with a troubling past. look at caron butler and amare stoudamire's life and it is a wonder that they are even in the nba. however, there are knuckleheads who do not learn such as artest, stephen jackson, jr rider and jamal tinsley who won't learn. but every decade had the same problem. 90's had derrick coleman and dennis rodman while the 80's had michael ray richardson and benoit benjamin.
jazz74
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3/22/2007  11:48 AM
Posted by jazz74:

i don't think it is a question of whether white america is afraid of the nba as much as if the nba generates the same excitement like before. as i can recollect, the nba in the 80's and 90's had more fights and thuggery than today. remember the pistons getting into fights with the celtics, philly and la? they were brutal fights with brutal fouls. jordan got in his fair share of fisticuffs, during practice ( kerr) and in games( miller). so you can't say that it is because of the "thug" image. it happens when you have some underpriveledge kids, no matter what the race, playing a passionate game and showing emotion the only way they know how. then give them multimillions all of the sudden still doesn't change the way they live or the way they were raised. product of the environment. obviously, there are a LOT of nba players who act responsible and know not to get in trouble even with a troubling past. look at caron butler and amare stoudamire's life and it is a wonder that they are even in the nba. however, there are knuckleheads who do not learn such as artest, stephen jackson, jr rider and jamal tinsley who won't learn. but every decade had the same problem. 90's had derrick coleman and dennis rodman while the 80's had michael ray richardson and benoit benjamin.
Bippity10
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3/22/2007  12:38 PM
Posted by Marv:

bip good post. we were really blessed to have been able to see jordan play.

i'll tell u though when I watch wade and lebron I see guys cut from the same cloth. and chris paul is something extra special too.

I agree. I think losing first hand to the Europeans helped to wake these guys up. I think the maximums on their first three year contracts has helped to teach these guys that they have to earn it. I think the NBA has done a better job of promoting guys like DWade who stay out of trouble and bust their ballse and are now ignoring the players that get in trouble(ie Kobe). They still market these guys but they don't completely ignore winning nowadays. Winning comes first and talent comes second. They also are are starting to promote teams and team matchups above soloists but it's a long process.

Now guys aren't getting huge contracts for poor play(unless Isiah signs them). The league is slowly policing itself but it really set itself back a lot. You want good quality play, make them earn it. It's the same way in every aspect of life.

By the way I can't wait to See OJ Mayo, this guy is going to be a mess.
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Bippity10
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3/22/2007  12:42 PM
Posted by playa2:

Shouldn't the blame really be put on DAVID "the don" Stern ?

He and NBA owners promoted and rewarded individualism in a "team sport" starting with Micheal Jordan.

They league bought into this pay without seeing production scheme, now tell me what other corporation does this?

Kids came around to realize that making espn highlites can get your family out of the hood pronto, not learning how to play the game(thank you espn).

So the product we all see is based upon owners and the commissioner looking at dollar signs and not the "true development" of a league overall.

This is why they there's a strong push to market euro players now who are known to be fundamentally sound, but they have a reason to be. Euros can play professionally at 16 yrs of age and get paid like tony parker did.

Stern and the boys sold out the NBA and now wants everything to change with stricter rules. The money that owners make now is much more than when bird , magic and MJ played.

It is David Stern and his marketing groups that had a major affect on the league. Like I said they are reaping what they sow. But they also have the right to change the way they market the league as well. I don't blame them for this. It's their job to bring in the most dollars possible. In return those players that are put off by having to wear a suit and stay out of trouble will actually see their salaries go up. David isn't doing this just for himself. It helps everyone. Without proper marketing you end up on some obscure channel with the NHL(an exaggeration but you get the point).

I do not disparage Stern for makign changes. He recognizes his mistakes. If the players don't like the changes he is bringing on the league they have the right to challenge via the player's union. They also have the right to quit and try another profession.

You'll notice that the NFL(the last men's league in america) the players actually police themselves. Instead of being apologists and making excuses for the troublemakers they themselves are trying to push a harder agenda than the commissioner in order to weed out all the troublemakers. They don't want to be viewed as thugs and are doing something about it.
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playa2
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3/22/2007  5:26 PM
What kid at the college age doesn't get in trouble with all that money at their disposable?

The only different is our goofups wasn't sprawled all over the newspapers and air waves and theirs are.

Shouldn't owners/gm's be accountable for drafting or acquiring troubled players, don't coprorations in america do the homework before they shell out millions of dollars?

IMHO instead of putting "ALL the blame on the players , most of the blame should go to the scouting staff of each team in professional sports, especially if their "true" intentions are to clean up the league.

Acquring talent is one thing, but if your focus is cleaning up the league why not fine NBA/NFL TEAMS ETC .... for drafting or trading for troublemakers !!!
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
Bippity10
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3/23/2007  9:16 AM
Posted by playa2:
Posted by BigSm00th:

i think red america is afraid of the nba

A friend of mine Ralpie called me at a few weeks ago and said he had to put the discipline his own son lil Ralph for calling him "son" one too many times. I wanted to see it as just disrespect, but I know my man Ralph..."white kids should be talking white". We grew up together and he will tell me in a minute..."If little Mike has posters of Paris Hilton, Limp Bizkit, Lindsy Lohan and Brad Pitt posters in his room or a Olsen twins wallpaper on the computer it would be ok . But his son has 50 Cent, Lebron James, Beyonce, Buffy The Body and The Rock on the Wall and I don't see it as a big deal but Ralphie's ready to call a family meeting? Where are the white people in this freakin house. He tells me "".

What the @#@# is this"?

I really do not think it is just the NBA. It is rap music, fashion, the integration of "real blacks" on TV and in movies that middle america are trying to get their kids to avoid.


Actually this is anectodal and not a true representation of the world. SEcondly "real blacks" on tv. Give me a break. We are still used as caricatures, stereotypes and clowns and I do not beleive that TV represents "real blacks" in the least little bit. White producers of rap videos and tv put on what they think "real blacks" are, and the rest of us go along with it.
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