Dirk should be working on getting his 2nd title this year (they really choked it last year). He's not Bird, but he's not that old and he keeps putting up numbers. It's getting closer than you'd think. I'll tell you what's a good question- which of a versatile, 7 foot PFs would you rather have, Dirk or Garnett, to build a team around?

[Edited by - vdesai on 03-21-2007 1:43 PM]

Posted by tomverve:

I don't think people realize how good Dirk is right now. He's more than a great scorer, and across the board, at least statistically, his current season compares favorably to Bird's best statistical season.

Dirk 07
52.8 eFG%, 90.0 FT%, 15.7 rebound rate, 13.2 assist ratio, 8.2 TO ratio, 28.8 PER

Bird 88
52.7 eFG%, 91.6 FT%, 14.0 rebound rate, 18.3 assist ratio, 8.3 TO ratio, 27.8 PER

The similarities are eerie. That's not to say Dirk's season is just as good as Bird's 88 season. But what it does suggest is that there is not a huge difference between Dirk's current level of play and Bird's. You can argue Dirk is not yet at Bird's level, but you can't argue that Dirk isn't in the same stratosphere. Dirk is playing at an MVP level right now.

Not being lazy, just don't know where you get those figures, but can you show me Dirk vs McAdoo's peak?

Posted by tomverve:

I don't think people realize how good Dirk is right now. He's more than a great scorer, and across the board, at least statistically, his current season compares favorably to Bird's best statistical season.

Dirk 07
52.8 eFG%, 90.0 FT%, 15.7 rebound rate, 13.2 assist ratio, 8.2 TO ratio, 28.8 PER

Bird 88
52.7 eFG%, 91.6 FT%, 14.0 rebound rate, 18.3 assist ratio, 8.3 TO ratio, 27.8 PER

The similarities are eerie. That's not to say Dirk's season is just as good as Bird's 88 season. But what it does suggest is that there is not a huge difference between Dirk's current level of play and Bird's. You can argue Dirk is not yet at Bird's level, but you can't argue that Dirk isn't in the same stratosphere. Dirk is playing at an MVP level right now.

this brings the "stats v. watch the game" argument right to the forefront.

i would like to know if there's anyone on this board who watched bird regularly that thinks dirk's name even belongs in the same sentence as his.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Not being lazy, just don't know where you get those figures, but can you show me Dirk vs McAdoo's peak?

You can use either of McAdoo's 35/14 season, or the 31/15.

I lived in Boston when Bird was a rookie. An example of how great he was --the year before he came Boston was 29-52 5th place. Birds rookie year they were 61-21 1st place with basically the same team, a bunch of role players--none of the other players were really that good at the time. He made everyone around him better. Boston added the other great players later. Dirk is a very good/great player but not close to Bird.

If you want to compare, you've got to get ready to talk about Babe ruth. What makes the Babe special is he hurled no-hitters and won 100 games and a title as a pitcher before he went on to accomplish great things with the bat. That right there makes Babe the best player ever for MLB. Hands down no one else dominanted hitting and pitching like the Babe.

Bird was so great that he was every bit the scorer and marksman that Dirk is and also as good a rebounder (though two inches shorter), while at the same time being one of the best playmakers ever. Forget who he played with for a second, Bird would have elevated the games of anyone he played with. I saw Bird, I saw Magic. They were both passing savants.

Imagine Dirk with Nashs court sense and Jordan's competitive fire. That guy would be larry Bird.

[Edited by - kam77 on 03-21-2007 3:04 PM]

Its tough to compare rebounding numbers from Bird and Dirk. The 80s were up and down basketball, there were more shots, more oppurtunities for rebounds. For instance, this season, Denver leads the NBA in rebounds per game with 43.8

In the 1985-1986 season (just a random year in Birds prime, year he won his 3rd ring) 11 teams had higher rebounding totals then this years Denver team. And Dirks rebounding difference isnt very large from Bird (10.0 to 8.6 career). The pace of the 80s was far different then todays NBA. Rebounding numbers were inflated.

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Its tough to compare rebounding numbers from Bird and Dirk. The 80s were up and down basketball, there were more shots, more oppurtunities for rebounds. For instance, this season, Denver leads the NBA in rebounds per game with 43.8

In the 1985-1986 season (just a random year in Birds prime, year he won his 3rd ring) 11 teams had higher rebounding totals then this years Denver team. And Dirks rebounding difference isnt very large from Bird (10.0 to 8.6 career). The pace of the 80s was far different then todays NBA. Rebounding numbers were inflated.

I'm not talking numbers. I'm talking about watching the games and watching one player take over the boards when it mattered. Hitting shots when it mattered. Making free throws when it mattered. Carrying his team when it mattered. Haven't seen Dirk do that yet. Almost the opposite actually.

Larry, Magic, Isiah and Michael and guys like them have so many legendary moments that willed their team to victories that you almost think they are made up. Dirk has yet to do this.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Not being lazy, just don't know where you get those figures, but can you show me Dirk vs McAdoo's peak?

The stats for Dirk this season I'm getting from Knickerblogger, which keeps tabs of these stats for the season as it progresses:
http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/jh_ALL_PER.htm

The stats for the other guys I get from basketball-reference.com, which has these stats for all previous seasons.

Comparing McAdoo's peak to Dirk right now is tough since during McAdoo's peak, they didn't keep track of turnovers. However, b-r.com still has a method to estimate PER without TOs so we can some sense of the comparison.

McAdoo's estimated PER in 74/75 (the 35/14 season) is 25.8. His estimated PER in 75/76 (the 31/15 season) is 23.3. Dirk's PER so far this year is 28.8, while last season it was 28.1. So in this sense, Dirk's peak is statistically superior to McAdoo's peak. Dirk's career PER so far (23.4) also surpasses McAdoo's career PER (20.7). Statistically, Dirk is closer to Bird (very comparable) than he is to McAdoo (both Bird and Dirk being superior).

Posted by tomverve:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Not being lazy, just don't know where you get those figures, but can you show me Dirk vs McAdoo's peak?

The stats for Dirk this season I'm getting from Knickerblogger, which keeps tabs of these stats for the season as it progresses:
http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/jh_ALL_PER.htm

The stats for the other guys I get from basketball-reference.com, which has these stats for all previous seasons.

Comparing McAdoo's peak to Dirk right now is tough since during McAdoo's peak, they didn't keep track of turnovers. However, b-r.com still has a method to estimate PER without TOs so we can some sense of the comparison.

McAdoo's estimated PER in 74/75 (the 35/14 season) is 25.8. His estimated PER in 75/76 (the 31/15 season) is 23.3. Dirk's PER so far this year is 28.8, while last season it was 28.1. So in this sense, Dirk's peak is statistically superior to McAdoo's peak. Dirk's career PER so far (23.4) also surpasses McAdoo's career PER (20.7). Statistically, Dirk is closer to Bird (very comparable) than he is to McAdoo (both Bird and Dirk being superior).

Thanks.

So what "inflates" Dirk's per relative to McAdoo's even in seasons when Mc was substantially higher in both pts and rbs?

Well, it's settled then. Dirk is approaching Bird's stratosphere; certainly he won't be up there until he wins a few titles. Of course, winning titles isn't everything, neither is the amazing perception of "clutch."

Robert Horry stands above them all in terms of memorable big-shots to total attempts ratio. Heck, as far as clutch shooters go, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan included, I might want Robert Horry taking the last shot for me in the playoffs. He managed 6 titles with 3 different teams, taking teams down with his last second heroics. Niiice! I liiike!

Statistically, as a player, he's certainly no match for Dirk or Bird... though I bet in NBA Live he should be able to out-dunk those two.

It's interesting how the perception is that Dirk doesn't step up in the playoffs. His rebounding numbers last year skyrocketed to 11.7rpg (from 9 in the regular season). Surely Dirk had some SportsCenter-quality "memorable" moments from the 15 playoff games his team won last year, certainly some in the conference semi's against the #1 seed Spurs? Or against the #2 seed Suns? Or even during the regular season.

Early in his career, he was pegged as something between a Tom Chambers and a poor man's Larry Bird. Perhaps leading his team to one of the outstanding regular season records in the history of the game, leading his team to an NBA title this year will at least get people to say, "A not-so-poor man's version of Larry Bird."

[Edited by - technomaster on 03-21-2007 6:52 PM]