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How do you pass to a double/tripple teamed player?
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nyk4ever
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3/15/2007  5:05 PM
Posted by kam77:

If Marbury were in Toronto, would they be as good? And what if we had Ford, would we be any better?

Toronto would be worse because Marbury can't play their stlye of ball.
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Anji
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3/15/2007  5:09 PM
One of the things I don't like is this is probably the only team(Orlando too) that hangs it's bigmen out to dry when they are doubled teamed to either score on two people most of the time or make a great pass to guys standing at the three point line. I never see anybody make a pass out the double team easy for Curry by going to the basket or an open spot or coming to him.

Example:
Marbury throws the ball to Curry and Cuts threw. Marburys man doesn't follow him to the corner and goes to double Curry. SO Curry has to either find Marbury behind his head some where, forces a pass to the four players he can see but are being face guarded or he has to score on two people.

Now I may not be a coach, but when I watch good teams the guy cutting threw(marbuy) goes to doted circle or the front of the rim and GETS HIS BIG MANS ATTENTION FOR A LAYUP. It might only be me though.

SO it's like Marbury/Francis/Q need 10 seconds to throw the ball over one player to a 7foot center postioning himself against his defender. BUt CUrry is suppose to get the ball out against two defenders to 6 footplayers standing at the three point being face guarded??? Makes Sense......
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Bippity10
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3/15/2007  5:09 PM
Posted by kam77:

If Marbury were in Toronto, would they be as good? And what if we had Ford, would we be any better?

There is a reason taht Toronto traded for Ford. They need a PG like him. A PG like marbs would play well, clash with his coaches, biotch about not playing his game and soon after be traded. Both guards are where they need to be. It's not about talent, it's fit. We need a more balanced backcourt so that this issue with Marbs is no longer an issue. That's why you don't just go out and slap guys on a roster and hope they work. If you want to eliminate this inconistency we do not have to raise our talent level drastically. But we do need to balance the roster
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Cash
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3/15/2007  5:21 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I don't understand how people think Marbury should be getting the ball into Curry when the defense is doubling him before he passes the ball. I don't see any PGs feeding post players who are double teamed. Isn't the real problem that at any given time we have 3 or 4 players on the court who can't hit jump shots and can't make the opponent pay for doubling Eddy? I don't see how any PG could feed a low-post player under these circumstances.

Players aren't doubling him until he gets the ball. However, they are all thinking about it, and moving into position to do so. And, they are thinking about it more and more as the season progresses. Curry's production has been low as of late, which some people correlate to Jamal Crawford being out of the lineup. This point has some merit because Crawford is the best at alleyoops and such which gets Curry going(they also possess good chemistry in general). However, at the same time, teams are learning that not only can Curry not pass out of a double team well, but that doubling him works really well. Even if a team is not doing it in the earlier portions of a game, they can do it in the late minutes when we need those high percentage baskets so much. The real problem is that is practically impossible to surround Curry with the pieces that he needs to suceed. There is a trade-off of abilities that is going to occur in any surrounding player. IF the guy is a good jump shooter, he is less likely to do the other things that the team needs on the floor to be successful. I don't feel like i need to name the things Curry cannot do at a high level for a center here.



[Edited by - Cash on 03-15-2007 5:23 PM]
Bonn1997
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3/15/2007  6:23 PM
Really? I think players are at least collapsing toward him before he gets the ball such that they're only one quick step away from double-teaming. They maintain a much farther distance when Jerome James or Cato is in.
TMS
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3/15/2007  6:35 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Really? I think players are at least collapsing toward him before he gets the ball such that they're only one quick step away from double-teaming. They maintain a much farther distance when Jerome James or Cato is in.

agree... anytime Jefferies, Balkman, Collins or Malik are on the floor, the double comes even before the pass goes inside sometimes because no one respects those guys' ability to score on the perimeter.
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TheGame
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3/15/2007  6:36 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bippity10:

there are several instances in last nights game where Curry flashed to the middle on the swing of the ball and was single covered with his man pinned on his back 3 feet from the hoop. If you get him the ball in this position noone is going to be able to get their in time to double. We missed him in these situations. If you continually miss big guys in these situations they are eventually going to stop working.

Same goes for jumpshooters that shoot off screens. Guys like Reggie Miller fight all game long to get open. They normally have the best defender shadowing them and focusing only on making sure they are never open. You need a PG that can get them the ball right away. A PG that has perfected the art of having the ball in the air before you are open, knowing that you will be the first one to get it and can go right into your shooting movement as the defender trails you. If you don't have a PG that can get him the ball at that time, he is instead getting it a second late. In the big man situation he is now double teamed. In the Shooters situation he is now forced to play one on one ball with his defender if he wants to get a shot up.

Having a player on the floor that understands when to pass is enormous. That's why guys like Stevie that can get assists because they pass when they need a bail out are normally not as successful as guys like Nash and Mark Jackson and Stockton and Magic and Isiah that understood what I'm saying.

you know you want to say it: Marb and Fran SUCK as PGs!!

I'm going to give Marbs a pass because his being asked to pick up the slack for Jamal. Unfortunately when he is looking for his shot we don't really have someone to pick up the passing slack from Marbs. Marbs is not a great passer, he's not great at running the offense but he has done a solid job at doing it this year. It's just right now we need him to score and do the things he does best. I can't criticize the guy right now.

As for Stevie. I said this many times and have been blasted many times. He is a great player with talent galore. But in my mind is not more than a sixth man. Instead of being called the "franchise" and being handed the keys as a rookie he should have had to ride the bench and earn his time until he learns how to play 5 on 5 basketball isntead of 1 on 1. I don't care about his big scoring games. I don't care about his rebounding. I know he has huge games and wins for his team from time to time. It's all good. But he is so disruptive to the offense that I really just don't think you can win consistently with him as a major guy getting 35+ minutes. I think I hate his game more than any NBA "star" in the past 10 years and I would hate playing with him. If you are a jumpshooter or a big man, he is your death.

I agree totally. It is never fair to put a loss on one person, but IMO we would have won the game last night if Francis was not out there. The guy is constantly out of place on defense and late in his rotations and he is destoying our offensive continuity. The only thing he is doing positive is rebounding. I would be much happier with Collins. The kid plays solid defense and does a decent job of running the point (or at least he is no worse than Francis and probably better) and the kid only shoots when he has to but is not afraid to shoot, which is what we need.
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TMS
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3/15/2007  6:42 PM
Francis makes plays at times that warrants him being out there, but he gets way out of control & overdribbles at others... when he's got it going, he can take over a game much like Marbury can... he'll win you some games & he'll lose you others... Collins will rarely win you any games, but he'll also rarely ever cost you one either... what do you prefer?
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Bippity10
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3/15/2007  7:07 PM
I personally would rather target a real PG in the draft or via free-agency than deal with either.
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TMS
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3/15/2007  7:19 PM
i think we need a shotblocker first & foremost before we think about addressing the need for a PG... i'm fine w/giving Jamal the ball & letting him work the 2 man game w/Curry next season... i know you don't think Jamal is cut out to be a starting PG, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

if they can't trade Francis, he's probably getting bought out in the offseason, so that may end up to be something you have to eat, chalk up to another bad personnel decision, & move on from... i don't see Marbury going anywhere anytime soon, but as long as he plays like he did before Jamal went down & D's up, i can take him being on the roster... so w/those 2 guys on the roster, i don't see another PG getting significant minutes in this rotation

i'd like to see Mardy get a few more minutes off the bench, & Nate probably needs to be traded along w/Frye to balance out the roster & bring in a defensive minded player in return... if we get a nice sleeper pick in the draft this year, & make a smart signing w/the MLE (haha), then i don't think this team will be that far away from being a contender in the East next season... i don't see the situation as bad as the rest of you guys seem to.
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Bippity10
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3/15/2007  7:28 PM
Posted by TMS:

i think we need a shotblocker first & foremost before we think about addressing the need for a PG... i'm fine w/giving Jamal the ball & letting him work the 2 man game w/Curry next season... i know you don't think Jamal is cut out to be a starting PG, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

if they can't trade Francis, he's probably getting bought out in the offseason, so that may end up to be something you have to eat, chalk up to another bad personnel decision, & move on from... i don't see Marbury going anywhere anytime soon, but as long as he plays like he did before Jamal went down & D's up, i can take him being on the roster... so w/those 2 guys on the roster, i don't see another PG getting significant minutes in this rotation

i'd like to see Mardy get a few more minutes off the bench, & Nate probably needs to be traded along w/Frye to balance out the roster & bring in a defensive minded player in return... if we get a nice sleeper pick in the draft this year, & make a smart signing w/the MLE (haha), then i don't think this team will be that far away from being a contender in the East next season... i don't see the situation as bad as the rest of you guys seem to.

I think what we need first is irrelevant. We need both of them. We also need a dead eye shooter to spread the floor. We all know that those three things are needed as long as Eddie Curry is our "franchise player". So it's a mistake to focus on one. Instead when a player comes available that fits one of those three things, and fits the type of team we are building and fits our team philosophy and future style of play you go for it. We don't draft based on what will help us make the playoffs first. We draft based on what player gives us the best chance to compete for a title so we don't waste Eddie's prime. We can't be short sighted anymore. If a sure fire average energy guy who may be an okay role player is sitting there as well as a shotblocker with potential to be a star, you grab the shotblocker. Even if he has question marks. Same with a PG. Same with a shooter. Enough building to shore up the weaknesses of a Marbury led average team and build for the future. I asked for this last year and I do not feel we got it.

Best player available that fills the above three needs.

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Bippity10
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3/15/2007  7:33 PM
I personally would not let Jamal run my offense. But it's nto a crazy idea TMS. I personally just don't think he has the vision to get the entire team involved and makes far to many mistakes. Plus with this team I like his shooting down the stretch. I think he's better off in a dual role. but if you start him at PG we need to start building a different team.We are going to definitely need defenders at the 2 and 3. A shotblocker still(actually probably more than one). And then we are looking at praying that we can run the offense through the 2 or the 3 in order to compliment jamal.

My biggest problem with Jamal playing PG is that now at the two positions that I feel you need defense the most, you now have 2 guys that are absolutely pathetic. With those two I think you need a frontline like Detroits to fill in for all their flaws.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 03-15-2007 7:34 PM]
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BigC
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3/15/2007  7:40 PM
Jamal found a way to get the ball to Curry which people claim is so difficult. Why can't Marbury? Or is Jamal's passing just that much better than Marbury's passing?
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Cash
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3/15/2007  7:55 PM
Posted by BigC:

Jamal found a way to get the ball to Curry which people claim is so difficult. Why can't Marbury? Or is Jamal's passing just that much better than Marbury's passing?

Part of the way that jamal got the ball to Curry was through the alley-oop pass. Apparently marbury cannot do this although I have scene Francis complete this pass. This is important because it seems to get Curry going(which apparently is a very difficult thing to do.) However, if what you say is true, that only Jamal Crawford can make a good entry pass to Curry, then you need to start thinking about both of them as a team. When you start thinking of both of them as a team, you have to consider how bad defensively both of them are. What type of team can you create around too very bad defensive players? Jamal Crawford is a career .400 shooter. He is not a good shooter, and he turns the ball over at a high rate without the corresponding assists that should accompany that number. How can our team win with these two guys? How can we possibly overcome their deficiencies?

BigC
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3/15/2007  8:06 PM
Posted by Cash:
Posted by BigC:

Jamal found a way to get the ball to Curry which people claim is so difficult. Why can't Marbury? Or is Jamal's passing just that much better than Marbury's passing?

Part of the way that jamal got the ball to Curry was through the alley-oop pass. Apparently marbury cannot do this although I have scene Francis complete this pass. This is important because it seems to get Curry going(which apparently is a very difficult thing to do.) However, if what you say is true, that only Jamal Crawford can make a good entry pass to Curry, then you need to start thinking about both of them as a team. When you start thinking of both of them as a team, you have to consider how bad defensively both of them are. What type of team can you create around too very bad defensive players? Jamal Crawford is a career .400 shooter. He is not a good shooter, and he turns the ball over at a high rate without the corresponding assists that should accompany that number. How can our team win with these two guys? How can we possibly overcome their deficiencies?

Are you saying the only way to get Curry going is throwing an alley opp? And if so, how did Kirk Hinrich get Eddie the ball? Also do you feel that Marbury is not capable of getting Curry the ball? Or is just Eddie's fault?



[Edited by - BigC on 03-15-2007 9:36 PM]
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Cash
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3/15/2007  8:14 PM
Posted by BigC:
Posted by Cash:
Posted by BigC:

Jamal found a way to get the ball to Curry which people claim is so difficult. Why can't Marbury? Or is Jamal's passing just that much better than Marbury's passing?

Part of the way that jamal got the ball to Curry was through the alley-oop pass. Apparently marbury cannot do this although I have scene Francis complete this pass. This is important because it seems to get Curry going(which apparently is a very difficult thing to do.) However, if what you say is true, that only Jamal Crawford can make a good entry pass to Curry, then you need to start thinking about both of them as a team. When you start thinking of both of them as a team, you have to consider how bad defensively both of them are. What type of team can you create around too very bad defensive players? Jamal Crawford is a career .400 shooter. He is not a good shooter, and he turns the ball over at a high rate without the corresponding assists that should accompany that number. How can our team win with these two guys? How can we possibly overcome their deficiencies?

Are saying the only way to get Curry going is throwing an alley opp? And if so, how did Kirk Hinrich get Eddie the ball? Also do you feel that Marbury is not capable of getting Curry the ball? Or is just Eddie's fault?

No, I am not saying the only way to get Eddy the ball is an alley-oop, it was however one of the most effective ways Crawford could do this. I think marbury, francis, nate, jalen rose,(even crawford-part of his turnover problem), Q, and all of the forwards on this team have had this problem which is why i posted the other thread about how difficult it is get Curry the ball in the post. I'm not saying Curry is the absolute problem, but he is clearly part of the problem.
BlueSeats
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3/15/2007  8:40 PM
Jamal would get Curry the ball off the dribble - meaning while moving. Marbury just stands there looking at Eddy, or pulsing the ball as if to gauge the velocity needed to reach the target, all while the defense sets itself.

Marbury is terrible at creating an offensive flow. Even when he was "Starbury", and left to his own devices, his MO was to dribble at the top of the arc for 18 secs, lulling both teams to sleep, before pummeling straight ahead.

Has anyone ever seen Marbury maintain his dribble under the basket? Ever? How about dribble from one side of the lane to the other without passing or shooting? What about penetrating halfway and then pulling back out?

We need a PG who can create movement.

[Edited by - blueseats on 03-15-2007 8:42 PM]
djsunyc
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3/15/2007  8:49 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

Jamal would get Curry the ball off the dribble - meaning while moving. Marbury just stands there looking at Eddy, or pulsing the ball as if to gauge the velocity needed to reach the target, all while the defense sets itself.

Marbury is terrible at creating an offensive flow. Even when he was "Starbury", and left to his own devices, his MO was to dribble at the top of the arc for 18 secs, lulling both teams to sleep, before pummeling straight ahead.

Has anyone ever seen Marbury maintain his dribble under the basket? Ever? How about dribble from one side of the lane to the other without passing or shooting? What about penetrating halfway and then pulling back out?

We need a PG who can create movement.

point guard? point guard? we don't need to stinkin' point guard...
BlueSeats
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3/15/2007  8:54 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by BlueSeats:

Jamal would get Curry the ball off the dribble - meaning while moving. Marbury just stands there looking at Eddy, or pulsing the ball as if to gauge the velocity needed to reach the target, all while the defense sets itself.

Marbury is terrible at creating an offensive flow. Even when he was "Starbury", and left to his own devices, his MO was to dribble at the top of the arc for 18 secs, lulling both teams to sleep, before pummeling straight ahead.

Has anyone ever seen Marbury maintain his dribble under the basket? Ever? How about dribble from one side of the lane to the other without passing or shooting? What about penetrating halfway and then pulling back out?

We need a PG who can create movement.

point guard? point guard? we don't need to stinkin' point guard...



Point guards, leaders, defenders, shooters, and shot blockers are overrated.

martin
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3/15/2007  9:40 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by BlueSeats:

Jamal would get Curry the ball off the dribble - meaning while moving. Marbury just stands there looking at Eddy, or pulsing the ball as if to gauge the velocity needed to reach the target, all while the defense sets itself.

Marbury is terrible at creating an offensive flow. Even when he was "Starbury", and left to his own devices, his MO was to dribble at the top of the arc for 18 secs, lulling both teams to sleep, before pummeling straight ahead.

Has anyone ever seen Marbury maintain his dribble under the basket? Ever? How about dribble from one side of the lane to the other without passing or shooting? What about penetrating halfway and then pulling back out?

We need a PG who can create movement.

point guard? point guard? we don't need to stinkin' point guard...



Point guards, leaders, defenders, shooters, and shot blockers are overrated.

LOL. I was just gonna use that line myself.
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