Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Michael6835:

Posted by Bonn1997:

I don't mind giving him time to improve but I've seen disappointing progress so far and I don't expect him to reach a point to justify giving up what we gave up. Usually the guys who show dramatic improvement are young players around 20-22 in their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd years. Each year after that, the odds of major improvement decrease. By the time you're almost average in NBA age and you've played 6 full seasons, your odds of significant improvement are pretty low. How many players didn't wait until year 7, age 25 (the year Eddy's supposed to rebound and play defense) to turn their games around? Then think of how many players there have been in the history of the NBA. Divide the first number by the second to get an objective probability level.

So this season is the limit for eddy ? So you want Tyrus Thomas and this years draft in which everyone somehow thinks we might would have got Oden. Tell me about probablity again. Eddy came in from highschool, very few who come in from highschool make the incredible jump to superstar right away. Bottom line, Eddy becomes great if he improves his defense, avgs double digit boards and gets a block or 2, also improves his free throws. These are things he can improve on

I didn't say it was the limit. I said odds are there will be only minor improvement. Yes, I'd rather have Brandon Roy and this year's lottery pick and our early second round picks all for a total salary of about one fifth Eddy's. Or I'd rather have packaged Frye and last year's #2 pick for an unprotected pick this year, which I think could have been achieved after the year Frye came off of. Play the young guys this year, have a 30 win team, and have have two great shots at Oden and Durant while still having Lee and perhaps Marcus Williams or even Balkman. Then you're building with versatile, two-way players while beginning to work toward a reasonable team salary. But I guess having Eddy, Lee, and few other assets is superior to those alternatives anyway

Problem with your plan, is you hope for a "shot" at Oden & Durant. There is no guarantees in that statement, there is no guarantee in those players developing into the stars we think they will be. So you rather roll the dice on the luck of the draft vs getting a guy with NBA experience and all of the same potential that these guys coming out have. we gambled on Curry, and from the looks of it, it was a good gamble. The money thing is silly, because if you did draft oden and he was good or playing like curry now, we would have to throw the same cash at him . So you get the benefit of the rookie contracts. There is your difference.

Also, with your plan of hoping we strike lottery gold (btw, last time we did that, I think the year was 1985 when we got Ewing. About 20yrs ago) we would be spending the next 3-4 seasons at least "rebuilding" or developing these guys into NBA shape. Where as with Curry in his 2nd year here, is giving us almost 19 and 7 per game. Giving us a chance to make the playoffs and a very very bright future. We can honestly look to next season with the hopes of winning 40 + games and being in the playoffs.

Posted by Michael6835:

Posted by islesfan:

All season it's been: Eddy got robbed and should have easily been an all star, Eddy is a dominant force and needs to be tripled teamed, Eddy forces the other team to game plan for him, Eddy is a top center in the league, look at Eddy crap all over Dwight Howard and Shaq, yada yada yada...

Now it's: well he's not really a franchise player, he's only 24, you can't really expect him to take over games, he doesn't know how to carry a team, he's not Shaq, he needs another all star... and all the other excuses for why hasn't put this team on his back once when they needed him.

The bottom line is that Curry will give you the softest and quietest 20 points you'll ever see but he'll never raise his game and carry a team like a true franchise player. A real go to player would.

Is dwight howard a franchise player ?

Yeah, and he's been in the league half the time Curry has and has shown a willingness and ability to take over games offensively or defensively.

You don't have to do it ALL the time and you don't have to win EVERY game but you do have to step up. Howard does, Curry doesn't.

Are you kidding me ? Responses like that is what kills your credibility. Howard is good, but you need to hold him to same standards as Curry. Howard is a beast, strong, good defense. He has no post game, he is all dunks. He needs to improve. Curry is the opposite, has all the offense and needs to get more serious on the boards and contest the shots. He needs to improve.
I don't understand why we think EC does not step up. YOU JUST BASH THE KNICKS FOR THE FUN OF IT. If you would agree to that, things would be good. But to say one is the guy you build around, while the other isnt shows your slant. Both are Franchise like players, which one will develop into the better center remains to be seen.

Posted by Michael6835:

Are you kidding me ? Responses like that is what kills your credibility. Howard is good, but you need to hold him to same standards as Curry. Howard is a beast, strong, good defense. He has no post game, he is all dunks. He needs to improve. Curry is the opposite, has all the offense and needs to get more serious on the boards and contest the shots. He needs to improve.
I don't understand why we think EC does not step up. YOU JUST BASH THE KNICKS FOR THE FUN OF IT. If you would agree to that, things would be good. But to say one is the guy you build around, while the other isnt shows your slant. Both are Franchise like players, which one will develop into the better center remains to be seen.

Must be why EVERY GM in the NBA takes Howard over Curry. Including Isiah...hopefully.

Posted by Michael6835:

Posted by joec32033:

We really have to distinguish all-star from Franchise player. 4 of the 5 championship Pistons were All-Stars. Not one was a franchise player by himself.

this is true, the franchise player on the pistons was their whole team.
The pistons* are the only champion I put an star next to. They did it with a team system, and they also faced a team at the end of their dynasty. They are a good team, all the parts fit. But you can't build around any one player. You can with Howard and Curry.

The difference between Curry and Howard is light years, though.

Curry is dependent on other players to get him involved and is only really effective in one area. To me all franchise players are at least one if not both of these.

I'll only take big men to be fair. Presently there are guys like Duncan, Howard, Amare, Shaquille. There was Robinson, Ewing, Mourning. All of these guys are/were able to change games on something other than the offensive end. They were able to take control of games on defense. They were able to rebound and block shots to get their teams extra possessions.

Curry needs to be dominant on offense because he can. He isn't a good rebounder. He isn't a shot blocker. He impacts the game on one end. He doesn't even have to be a good defender. To be a franchise player you have to do more than one thing in a dominating fashion. They guys I mentioned, do. Curry doesn't. At least not yet.

Posted by Michael6835:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Michael6835:

Posted by Bonn1997:

I don't mind giving him time to improve but I've seen disappointing progress so far and I don't expect him to reach a point to justify giving up what we gave up. Usually the guys who show dramatic improvement are young players around 20-22 in their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd years. Each year after that, the odds of major improvement decrease. By the time you're almost average in NBA age and you've played 6 full seasons, your odds of significant improvement are pretty low. How many players didn't wait until year 7, age 25 (the year Eddy's supposed to rebound and play defense) to turn their games around? Then think of how many players there have been in the history of the NBA. Divide the first number by the second to get an objective probability level.

So this season is the limit for eddy ? So you want Tyrus Thomas and this years draft in which everyone somehow thinks we might would have got Oden. Tell me about probablity again. Eddy came in from highschool, very few who come in from highschool make the incredible jump to superstar right away. Bottom line, Eddy becomes great if he improves his defense, avgs double digit boards and gets a block or 2, also improves his free throws. These are things he can improve on

I didn't say it was the limit. I said odds are there will be only minor improvement. Yes, I'd rather have Brandon Roy and this year's lottery pick and our early second round picks all for a total salary of about one fifth Eddy's. Or I'd rather have packaged Frye and last year's #2 pick for an unprotected pick this year, which I think could have been achieved after the year Frye came off of. Play the young guys this year, have a 30 win team, and have have two great shots at Oden and Durant while still having Lee and perhaps Marcus Williams or even Balkman. Then you're building with versatile, two-way players while beginning to work toward a reasonable team salary. But I guess having Eddy, Lee, and few other assets is superior to those alternatives anyway

Problem with your plan, is you hope for a "shot" at Oden & Durant.

That's not a problem. I'd already take Roy, who stat-wise is at least as impressive in year 1 as Curry in year 6, ahead of Eddy. (I believe the team that builds with versatile 2 way players will always be more likely to come out ahead of the team that builds around a 1 dimensional player.) Then you may not get Oden or Durant, but if you don't, you'll still be able to get another very good 2-way player. Seriously, there are probably only 5 to 10 players in this league I'd give up this year's likely rookie of the year (Roy) and a chance for a very good 2 way lottery player (potentially Oden or Durant) from this draft and two early 2nd round picks for considering that we're a rebuilding team; and Curry aint one of them.



[Edited by - bonn1997 on 03-03-2007 2:27 PM]

I definatly understand the fear that Curry deosn't crave winning as you would want your go to player to. And the fear that he may never be that way.

I do think he is a great asset to have next to a true franchise player though. Whos to say that we don't eventually land one next to Curry in the future. Curry showed in his last yr in Chi, that he can a main cog on a very good team.

Curry has come a long way this season. He's in better shape, which is allowing him to play more minutes. He's even better as an inside scorer than he was. He's avoided foul trouble. And he's learning to pass out of the double team. That's a lot of improvement.

Now, I'm not yet convinced that he's going to improve in other aspects of his game, but I'm not ready to discount the possibility. He may just become a well rounded player. He's still got a lot to prove, but since he's on his way up, why assume that he's reached the pinnacle of his game?

Posted by Ira:

Curry has come a long way this season. He's in better shape, which is allowing him to play more minutes. He's even better as an inside scorer than he was. He's avoided foul trouble. And he's learning to pass out of the double team. That's a lot of improvement.

Now, I'm not yet convinced that he's going to improve in other aspects of his game, but I'm not ready to discount the possibility. He may just become a well rounded player. He's still got a lot to prove, but since he's on his way up, why assume that he's reached the pinnacle of his game?

This is all I am saying. If you read the posts of every one here, Curry has already reached his ceiling and will start to decline. Some are ready to bet the bank on unproven players, first year players. Many are confusing what is means to be Franchise and yes you have to get techinal with the meaning. If Howard is Orlando's franchise player, then by the same token Curry is Ny's franchise player. Truthfully, if the bar is to compare the two to Shaq, KG, Dirk, etc then no they are not ready to for the franchise tag yet. Do you build your team around them ? Will curry need another all star ? Yes. The bashing has got to stop, the guy is producing and proving that he is worth the price. I defend Curry because so many go out of their way to bash him and discredit his accomplishments. The grass is always greener on the other side, we have a young Big who is going to be an all-star for many years to come in this league. The reason he did not make the team this year was strictly because of NY's record, he was putting up numbers on a bad team with a bad record. You have to work with what we have and I like what we have with Eddie, Lee, and Frye. All the talk about what could have been or who we could have signed and drafted is a bunch of bull ish talk. We took the best deal that was on the table with out all the crap involved with hoping and preying the lottery ball comes up with your logo on it. We rolled the dice and now we are starting to get tangible results and everyone is still complaining. The kid is 24! As an aside,I think howard is a beast and will be a beast.

time to go watch the game .

go knicks.