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WOW: Harvey Araton Tells Why the Knicks Fired Don Nelson [article] (suggested Ewing/Shaq swap)
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eViL
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3/2/2007  1:24 PM
Posted by oohah:

There is no way Orlando would have traded Ewing for Shaq straight up.

Shaq was cramming it on Ewing from day one, and when Shaq was traded to the Lakers Ewing was even further downhill, not to mention Ewing was making 18 million....

oohah

What was their alternative? They ended up letting Shaq walk for nothing. And there was no salary matching restrictions on trades back then. But whatever, we're talking about an alleged trade proposal. If it happened it would have been awesome. It would have certainly resulted in championships. But it didn't happen. And we got Curry now anyway. Who needs Shaq?

check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
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bobs3304
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3/2/2007  1:35 PM
oh god.


more incompetency.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
VDesai
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3/2/2007  1:39 PM
It's ****ing bull****. The Knicks had no shot at Shaq. Shaq wanted to play for LA and pretty much only LA. He wanted Hollywood, he wanted to be in movies, and he loved Magic Johnson. That was where he wanted to be.

Nelson just didn't like Ewing period and Ewing had a few more good years. Knicks could've been a lot better that year.
PresIke
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3/2/2007  1:45 PM
Guys never fear...Ike is here...

haha...

Anyway, if you ever need a Times Select article I'm your guy:
March 2, 2007

Sports of The Times

Hindsight, the Knicks and Nelson’s Foresight

By HARVEY ARATON

Close your eyes. Take a deep breath. Let your mind wander back to March 8, 1996, the day the Knicks cast Don Nelson out as an eccentric coach and a burnout case.

Remember how the players celebrated Nelson’s dismissal and the installation of the career assistant Jeff Van Gundy. How Dave Checketts, the president of Madison Square Garden, said Nelson “looked defeated.”

Beleaguered, beaten down, with the unforgivable record of 34-25, after the same number of games the 26-33 Knicks have played this season going into tonight’s Garden meeting with the Golden State Warriors and their first-year coach, Don Nelson.

Granted, that was a different era, in a James Dolan-less Garden and a context almost inconceivable given the current deflated achievements and standards. Under Van Gundy the Knicks did resurface as a solid playoff team until the bottom dropped out. But given what Nelson subsequently achieved, his keen eye for talent, it’s also fair to ask: Would he have been better for the long haul?

“Oh, it would never have worked out in New York,” Nelson said yesterday in a telephone interview, an acknowledgment that succeeding Pat Riley was mission impossible, especially for him.

Nelson was an outsider, an agent of change, who didn’t believe the Knicks had much of a future with Patrick Ewing, then 33 and angling for a rich contract extension, as their franchise player. Nelson was thinking out of the box, and big. He wanted the Knicks to chase Shaquille O’Neal, who was playing his last season in Orlando.

“I had coached Shaq in the world championships in ’94 and established a pretty good relationship with him,” Nelson said. “I knew he wanted to go elsewhere and so I brought this up a meeting with the Garden people. I said: ‘He would come to New York. It’s going to be Los Angeles or us. And if we give ’em Ewing, it would be the best deal Orlando could make.’

“Well, somehow that got back to Ewing and after that, I was toast.”

Put off by Nelson’s up-tempo offense that didn’t feature him as a low-post hub, Ewing led an insurrection, a work slowdown. Instead of the toast, the Knicks put their money on Ewing, their longtime bread-and-butter, and so much overpriced talent that made them what are they today.

But what if they had taken the alternative route, given up trying to re-create Riley, Armani and all, and just let Nelly be Nelly? What if they had let the man who had worn ugly fish ties stalking the sideline in unglamorous Milwaukee remake the Knicks in his own unpredictable image?

Maybe they would not have gotten Shaq, but might they have developed a more worldly view?

Gregg Popovich, coach of the internationally flavored and three-time champion Spurs, tells of how, on a late 1980s trip to Germany to take his first close look at the European game, he spotted one familiar American face in the arena. It was Nelson, in front of the pack, ahead of his time.



“It was actually my son, Donny, who was the pioneer,” Nelson said. “He was traveling all over the world, playing amateur ball. He called me from Russia one day and said, ‘You’ve got to see some of these guys.’ I went over and was amazed by the way they played, especially the ability of the big men to pass and shoot like the guards.”

That the signature draft pick of Nelson’s long career would be a German was a coincidence. That he was astute enough to land Dirk Nowitzki, the best foreign N.B.A. player to date, was not.

Nelson, the coach who wasn’t urbane enough for Celebrity Row, went to Dallas and in four years turned one of the league’s perennial losers into a 60-victory team. He drafted Nowitzki, traded for Steve Nash when Nash was a backup in Phoenix to Jason Kidd and developed both.

Here we are, all these years after being told by the Knicks that Nelson was a has-been in his mid-50s, and his guys, Nowitzki and Nash, are the essential players on the teams (Dallas and Phoenix) with the league’s best records, with Nowitzki the leading contender to replace Nash as most valuable player.

Just for the record, Nelson reminds us that he also drafted Josh Howard, a rising co-star for Nowitzki in Dallas, with the 29th pick in the first round. By comparison, how many All-Stars have the Knicks developed since, well, Ewing was won in a lottery in 1985?

“I’ve always enjoyed the games, the competition, but putting the teams together, developing the talent, that’s what I’ve enjoyed the most,” Nelson said.

He has coached more victories than anyone except Lenny Wilkens but has not won a title, and his teams, no defensive juggernauts, have rarely overachieved in the playoffs. Doubts also persist about Nash’s and Nowitzki’s ability to front a champion, although critics shouldn’t belabor this point. Nowitzki’s struggles in last year’s finals notwithstanding, he hit a cold-blooded jumper over Shaq near the end of Game 5 — a shot of title timber — only to have Dwyane Wade bailed out by a dubious whistle in the series’ pivotal moment.



Nelson was out of the Dallas picture by then, seemingly in retirement, until the Warriors’ general manager, Chris Mullin, reached out to his old coach and mentor during Nelson’s first go-round at Golden State. The season has been turbulent, injury marred, but Nelson said he likes the core talent, especially the Latvian Andris Biedrins, whom he recently called the best center he has coached since Bob Lanier, way back in Milwaukee.

Was he serious or looking to settle an old score? Better than Ewing?

Obviously not the Ewing in his prime, Nelson said, just the Ewing that he coached, the Ewing who resisted change and reality, who made the Knicks choose.

Close your eyes. Look back with what you know now. Smart choice or not?

E-mail: hjaraton@nytimes.com

Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company

[Edited by - PresIke on 03-02-2007 1:45 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
kam77
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3/2/2007  1:45 PM
Agreed VDesa. PPlus Orlando had no reason to trade Young for Old and blow their Cap # for years to come ona player with injury history on the downslope of his career.

Everyone who whined on this thread should punch themselves in the gut. Man up.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
VDesai
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3/2/2007  1:49 PM
Nelly's been telling his sob story for years. He was trying to bring his wide open offense to NY, and he couldn't do that with Ewing and the defensive roster he had. He was even trying to run things through Mase. So he wanted Ewing out. Bottom line, it didn't make sense b/c he inherited a 55-60 win team and led them to a 34-25 record through 59 games.

The summer that Shaq changed hands was also the summer they gave out big contracts to Houston and Childs and traded for LJ's huge money contract. Not sure how the money would've worked out here.
VDesai
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3/2/2007  1:51 PM
I keep replying to myself here, but the biggest mistake the Knicks made was hiring Nelly to replace Riley. They went for the name rather than someone who fit their roster. Eventually JVG got the job, but they should've gotten the right fit from the start.
djsunyc
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3/2/2007  1:58 PM
thanks ike.
Nalod
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3/2/2007  2:05 PM
Orlando could have let ewing walk, or orchestrated another move and gotten SOMTHING!

Lets not even focus on Shaq, Nelson we about changing the team and moving on from the halfcourt "wait for patrick" offense. Instead we reverted back to the Riley gring as instituted by JVG. JVG owed his soul to Ewing.

Im sure lots of things could have beend different. An unlimited checkbook and fresh thinking might have yielded a different result.

One thing to consider, sure we all would have wanted Shaq, but life without ewing was not a consideration by the fans. Even while Pat was grumpy, the fans were panicked he would leave if we did not give him what he wanted.

Question I always had was why the hell was he hired in the first place? Sound similar? Why was Larry bought in?

Im sure management always wants a kick ass dude to make changes but does not want to go thru the pain to do so.

In retrospect we should have let Nellie (a former celtic mind you!) revamp the team but most fans were too scared to face an uncertain Ewing-less future. And we slapped around Euro's back in the day! We all figured Oak would eat Euros all day long!

Thinking outside the box is not easy. Thats why we starphuch!
VDesai
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3/2/2007  2:07 PM
The revisionist history in this article is astounding.

"Instead of the toast, the Knicks put their money on Ewing, their longtime bread-and-butter, and so much overpriced talent that made them what are they today."

Umm, so not letting go of Ewing in 1995 was the reason we've got an overpaid roster now? Not quite. Letting Ewing go as an FA would've prevented the dominoes of moves.

But let's not lose sight of the main reason.

Dolan.
VDesai
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3/2/2007  2:10 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Orlando could have let ewing walk, or orchestrated another move and gotten SOMTHING!

Lets not even focus on Shaq, Nelson we about changing the team and moving on from the halfcourt "wait for patrick" offense. Instead we reverted back to the Riley gring as instituted by JVG. JVG owed his soul to Ewing.

Im sure lots of things could have beend different. An unlimited checkbook and fresh thinking might have yielded a different result.

One thing to consider, sure we all would have wanted Shaq, but life without ewing was not a consideration by the fans. Even while Pat was grumpy, the fans were panicked he would leave if we did not give him what he wanted.

Question I always had was why the hell was he hired in the first place? Sound similar? Why was Larry bought in?

Im sure management always wants a kick ass dude to make changes but does not want to go thru the pain to do so.

In retrospect we should have let Nellie (a former celtic mind you!) revamp the team but most fans were too scared to face an uncertain Ewing-less future. And we slapped around Euro's back in the day! We all figured Oak would eat Euros all day long!

Thinking outside the box is not easy. Thats why we starphuch!


Rebuild a 55 win team? Not a particuarly smart idea, and not an easy thing to do. And turn them around from defense to wide open Nelly style. Even sillier. Knicks patched things up quite nice in FA only an offseason after that.

The starphuch here was hiring Nelly in the first place because they wanted a big name to replace Riley.
kam77
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3/2/2007  2:35 PM
Mike and the Mad dog just discussed this article on their show at the top of the hour and pretty much laughed it off as totally revisionist.
He's got sour grapes for being fired and this is his salvo. They totally dismissed the idea of Shaq coming to NY, saying Shaqs agent was 100% set on LA. They said Nelson looked like he mailed it in when he was here.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
PresIke
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3/2/2007  2:37 PM
But I gotta say...c'mon guys...how many of us were actually in Don Nelson's corner then?

sfx...crickets...

Sure, we didn't know about the alleged idea of trying to land Shaq, but even Araton suggests that the idea of getting Shaq was not a given, and I can see plenty of evidence to suggest that there is reason to doubt that he would have come to NY. Would it have been interesting to try? Yes. Was Ewing given too much weight? Maybe, but it's easy to say that now.

HINDSIGHT IS 20/20...

I'm not saying that the Knicks didn't make mistakes, but was that Ewing's fault? All of his hard work to turn NY into a champion to suddenly be dissed? [revised] No wonder today's NBA players don't seem to care about winning a title. The motivation to win for your team can't be that high when you know you're just a commodity to be bought and sold whenever the team doesn't want you (sounds kind of vile, and oddly remenscent of something really vile, right?). Loyalty should and DOES count for something in sports. Isn't that the criticism more people have started to utter about Ewing being traded to Seattle or how we complain about the Knicks or today's NBA? Shaq's departure from Orlando, to me could be seen as the beginning of the end of the NBA as we know it. [/revised] What about the terrible draft picking that had nothing to do with Ewing. As a fan, I think this article is a real nasty jab at Ewing, and is starting to bring up memories...based on some of your responses...about how some of the new rhetoric about loving Ewing was not as strong as we thought.

The NY obsession with and pressure to get the "championship" is part of the blame (from fans and organizations who keep setting high expectations for us, and how that seems to have permeated into a permanent mindset). I doubt the Knicks were ever interested in looking down the road and were always expecting to make one last move that was supposed to seal the deal. Today, the complaints are about the payroll, and how that is -- according to the most vehement critics -- is not representative of the win total or performance of the team. Well...maybe it's worth considering how we as fans who talk about patience...rarely, if ever, show it, and the way NY teams are run to meet these expectations so they can get the most possible money in the city with the most available capital in America.

The Knicks, today, are a gazillion dollars over the cap and not get equal talent because of the way they acquired players. This was primarily through trades for someone the other team didn't want. Some of them have worked out to some extent, but some have not performed on a level that, if compared to comparable players salary wise, their paycheck states. But that was going to be likely, just based on the approach to constructing and running the team. This relates to the Ewing era and other NY teams who can spend big, like the Rangers (for a while) the Yankees & Mets, because they all resort to the same approach of corporate business modeling. This is in the sense that as organizations they have felt constant pressure to satisfy stock holders and Wall Street through short term profit goals (quarterly earnings). They don't tend to look far down the road because they tend to take a more optimistic/rosy view or ignore it because it is something they think they can deal with later.

Teams in cities where the pressure to win "now" (satisfy stock holders/fans) is less and have stunk for ages can take greater risks, such as hiring Don Nelson as GM and Coach after being labeled a loser, because they can't play the way NY teams run business, and when they do have a owner who wants to spend, he pretty much is able to be autonomous, or use his own independent wealth (like Mark Cuban) and not worry about what other people think, although that doesn't always work out either...ask Paul Allen about the Blazers. Interestingly, similar arguments have been made to show why the Newspaper industry has fallen into more entertainment based coverage rather than investigative and hard news, from pressure to satisfy Wall St. & Stock holders dictating behavior, and only those that are run by families (The NY Times, Wall St. Journal & Washington Post) are willing to not follow these "trends."

I challenge some of us to re-think our statement that we would be willing to be patient because whenever a NY team does badly the fans rail on them. In fairness, it's hard to think of examples where we have seen NY teams that grow and allowed to be bad, and failed, and then allowing the organization to "rebuild" the team again.

The Yankees had a few years in the early 90's before '94 where they had some young players, and failed, but they quickly recovered with a few prospects (Jeter, Williams, Rivera). Prior to that they always tried to buy guys and they stunk. It took a LONG period of bad results with that same approach for them to change to a combo of youth trades, and signings. But the Yankees also had no salary cap, and were able to exploit that, yet every year they didn't win after 2000 they resorted more so to their old ways of exclusively buying vets and trading youth. Only now with 6 years of "failure" are they starting to develop some youth again, although I still see some of the same dependence on old heroes as Ewing was, but it's not their fault necessarily that the organization kept bringing in guys who couldn't meet their and the fan's lofty expectations, when they had been performing. The point is that the temptation for NY teams with big doe is to hold onto what you have and try to add to it...addition with little subtraction. Playing it conservative is common for big companies because of the amount of money invested, and the consistent expectation from media, fans and return on that investment.

So to expect the Knicks to have dumped Ewing and listen to Nelson is just so far from what I think reality is that it's just pointless to worry about what could have been...when I believe there is good reason to suspect that it NEVER would have been, and is a HUGE insult to Ewing as a guy who wanted so badly to get the Knicks a title.

[Edited by - PresIke on 03-02-2007 2:41 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 03-02-2007 2:42 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
oohah
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3/2/2007  2:43 PM
But I gotta say...c'mon guys...how many of us were actually in Don Nelson's corner then?

sfx...crickets...

Here you are, I was in his corner! I always liked Nellie, and I thought he squeezed the most out of his teams in Milwaukee and Golden State. And I do not think Nelson(nor did he say back then) wanted Ewing simply out. What he did say back then was that he thought Ewing needed to be the number 2 man at that point of his career. He was probably right. Ewing got him canned for it.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
K22
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3/2/2007  3:21 PM
How ironic that Patrick would end up in Orlando anyway.
-- the preceding post was brought to you by the letter K and the number 22.
tkf
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3/2/2007  4:03 PM
I always like nelson, I loved his creativness, the game needs that. Holding on to ewing cost us in so many ways, the worst being the trade we made to saisfy his desire to leave NY. We ended up with Sheisley( shandon Anderson and eisley) Longley and some other junk, that just led us to acquiring other junk, which we are still paying for today...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
franco12
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3/2/2007  4:12 PM
Posted by oohah:
But I gotta say...c'mon guys...how many of us were actually in Don Nelson's corner then?

sfx...crickets...

Here you are, I was in his corner! I always liked Nellie, and I thought he squeezed the most out of his teams in Milwaukee and Golden State. And I do not think Nelson(nor did he say back then) wanted Ewing simply out. What he did say back then was that he thought Ewing needed to be the number 2 man at that point of his career. He was probably right. Ewing got him canned for it.

oohah

there is what he said in public at the time and what he might have said in private to the MSG people.

Don't know if I believe this or not...
Ira
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3/2/2007  4:44 PM
I don't believe it. I lost confidence in Nelson as a coach when he benched Starks and started Hubert Davis. That was utterly ridiculous, but there was a hidden motive. Nelson's Warriors had Starks and cut him. When the Knicks rescued him from the CBA, it made Nelson look bad.

Hubert Davis had a nice jumper, but was slow and did zip on defense. Starting him over Starks showed what Nelson was made of. He deserved to be canned.
Pharzeone
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3/2/2007  4:50 PM
Didn't Shaq admit when he was traded to Miami that he was never serious about wanting to come to NY. I think he listed traffic as the primary reason. Second, he cited wanted to raise his family in a less stress environment. He also stated that part of it was to get the goat of Ewing. Then he joking mentioned that he could not deal with snow anymore. But apparently he was using the Knicks to help him out in negotiations with the Magic and the Lakers.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
TMS
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3/2/2007  5:00 PM
i think the real reason is because he knew he couldn't hack it in the NYPD.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
WOW: Harvey Araton Tells Why the Knicks Fired Don Nelson [article] (suggested Ewing/Shaq swap)

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