If Isiah was so high on Balkman that he wouldn't trade him for Carter, then he wouldn't be giving Balkman DNP-CDs

Posted by nyk4ever:

TMS, these are types of moves that the Knicks need to make so they can actually START rebuilding.

like i said, you say that now, but once you see those guys grow into good players for the Nets & see Vince Carter sign w/ORL in the offseason, most people wouuld curse Isiah for making a deal like that.

rebuilding doesn't involve giving away young players to get rid of old ones. i'd buy out malik and JJ before i trade away 1st round picks.

you're talking about a guy we took w/the #8 pick a year ago & another kid who looks like he'll be a nice role player at the very least... giving them away to the Nets of all teams, for a 2 month rental just to unload Malik & Turd off the roster when it wouldn't put this team under the cap doesn't solve anything... i realize what you're trying to say, that we need to start addressing the cap issue, but giving away young talent to do it isn't a good strategy IMO.

Posted by MS:

But you would also be giving up Rose and James two contracts we can't move ever, and you could turn around and package vince to the destination of his choice or maybe even do a sign and trade

Are you a Nets fan? just wondering by the how you worded your post...

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by TMS:

you're talking about a guy we took w/the #8 pick a year ago & another kid who looks like he'll be a nice role player at the very least... giving them away to the Nets of all teams, for a 2 month rental just to unload Malik & Turd off the roster when it wouldn't put this team under the cap doesn't solve anything... i realize what you're trying to say, that we need to start addressing the cap issue, but giving away young talent to do it isn't a good strategy IMO.

I agree man, it's not desirable. I hate the fact that these are the types of situations that I have to even COME UP WITH, just to try and get this team back into goodstanding but nevertheless, its the way it is. I don't mind if people don't agree with me, but I personally wouldn't mind fleecing this team and just taking a few years to build this ship the right away. Obviously Dolan disagrees but Dolan will soon realize when this team isn't even making the playoffs that true rebuilding is the only way to go and when he does, its going to require trading our young guys with our overpaid vets just to get under the cap.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Should I call you the Exterminator, take no offense. Since you want Dolan to fumigate. This name applies. But nuking the team with your scorch the earth policy will not be very palatable. I am not going to be happy with a 15 win team for the next few years. I don't want the Knicks to go through that. If you asked me when Ewing was squaking, I would have said lets blow it all up, we've just been to the finals and had years of success.

These Knicks have been on the proverbial death bed for years. Now that they're showing some faint signs of life, the fan corps cannot bear to witness the slaughter of this nascent team. I think your kind is not wrong in principle. I just think this is not your time. One day, the exterminator will have his way. But now is not that day.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by TMS:

you're talking about a guy we took w/the #8 pick a year ago & another kid who looks like he'll be a nice role player at the very least... giving them away to the Nets of all teams, for a 2 month rental just to unload Malik & Turd off the roster when it wouldn't put this team under the cap doesn't solve anything... i realize what you're trying to say, that we need to start addressing the cap issue, but giving away young talent to do it isn't a good strategy IMO.

I agree man, it's not desirable. I hate the fact that these are the types of situations that I have to even COME UP WITH, just to try and get this team back into goodstanding but nevertheless, its the way it is. I don't mind if people don't agree with me, but I personally wouldn't mind fleecing this team and just taking a few years to build this ship the right away. Obviously Dolan disagrees but Dolan will soon realize when this team isn't even making the playoffs that true rebuilding is the only way to go and when he does, its going to require trading our young guys with our overpaid vets just to get under the cap.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

The cap absolutely has to be reduced but it must be reduced with a very defined timeline. It is realistically impossible to get under the payroll prior to 2009 without recklessly dropping talent - the number of large contracts we'd have to get rid off is too much. So, removing large contracts that end before 2009 is probably counter-productive as it will probably not allow us to get under the cap at an earlier date. It will, however, cost us talent. Since Malik's contract ends in 2008, I am opposed to trading him - any deal that saves us money will cost us talent without affecting the 2009 cap number.

Additionally, I have quite a high opinion of Balkman - I think he can be a valuable starter on a contender - and I would be very reluctant to part with him. Looking closely at his development, this is clearly a sell-low situation because Balkman will continue to improve in the coming years. Again, since 2009 is the earliest realistic date at which our payroll may be under the threshold, there is no urgency in shedding payroll, and waiting on our young players will allow us to trade them at values closer to their peak. So, if you'd really like to use Balkman as bait to unload large contracts, trading him next year or the year after might allow you to get more cap space in return.

Its also important to note that that giving up both Frye and Balkman in one deal instead of 2 separate cap-saving deals diminishes their value since there's only so much cap space you can get in one deal and from one team. Its analagous to having a birthday close to Christmas - the consolidated present always seems to have less net value. So, holding off on a trade for Frye and Balkman over the next 1-2 years allows them to develop into better trading chips, enabling you to use either of them as a principal in a deal and take advantage of greater returns from separate trades.

My other concern would be that Vince Carter's value as a marketable all-star costs us more talent than necessary. Any package for Carter would have bloated value to offset the talent discrepancy in addition to the financial value that comes with Vince excercising his player option. Its important to note, as others have, that the short-term talent for which we'd be paying is not consisent with the goal of a championship. Even if Vince were to re-sign with us, his all-star shelf-life is at most 2-3 years, not long enough to complement the growth of our young players. Instead of giving away assets for expiring talent, its better to target declining or mediocre players whose primary value lies with their contracts expiring before 2009. Since these contracts are not expiring immediately, their league-wide value will be lower than traditional expiring contracts and our trading partners hold less leverage. These "2009 contracts" remain essentially important to us, however, because of our uniquely huge payroll. Using these criteria, Kwame Brown is an excellent target. For instance, offerring Jeffries and Frye in exchange for Kwame Brown, with his $9 million annual salary expiring in 2008, Maurice Evans, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick effectively swaps our talent for future resources.

Nyk4ever, while I agree that cap managment is important, this Carter deal is clearly suboptimal and I would not pull the trigger as there will be better options down the road.