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Finestrg
Posts: 27296
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/1/2006
Member: #1069
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Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by Finestrg:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by Finestrg:
I like the idea of trading with Golden State for a lot for a few reasons. Here's a few:
(1) First, they have a surplus of talent on that team and as talented as they are, they're unbalanced. Therefore you would think Mullin should be more willing to make a deal, and a fair deal at that, by Thursday. More so than most GMs whose socks would have to be blown off in order to make a deal for that one player they think another covets. No nonsense as in, "OK Zeke, but I want both your 1st and 2nd rounders plus you have to take Adonal Foyle off our hands" type stuff. At least I don't feel like he would push for some crazy, big money deal with us. Just the principal players involved. No Francis, Malik Rose and Adonal Foyle involved. I like the idea that Pietrus' and Biedrins' contracts aren't big money deals. And neither are our young players' contracts - Frye, Lee, Nate, Balkman and Mardy. Plus, without getting crazy we have Cato's expiring and more than managable contract to throw in as an adjustment to make something work.
(2) Mullin's got capable replacements on that team for the guys that could go in a trade (JRich/Harrington/Jackson/Azubuike/Barnes can more than compensate for Pietrus' departure in a potential trade as can Patrick O'Bryant for Biedrins). It's nice knowing you have someone as good or not better that's ready to fill in for a guy you just traded. At least that's how I'd feel. I would be a little more at ease in pulling the trigger on something and wouldn't be as hesitant if I had the surplus of talent and roster flexibility Mullin has at certain positions.
(3) If we ever dealt Frye, Lee or Nate to the Warriors and any of them went on to become all-stars (worst case scenario for us) it would be better to have them out west than to see them more and compete against them in our own conference. If we're gonna deal any of our young talent, let it be with a Western Conference club.
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Bottom line is I like Pietrus and Biedrins a lot. And I want to team them up with Curry. With 35+ minutes and 15+ shot attempts a game, I think Pietrus could be an all-star. That's how much ability I think he has. Plus, he's a good defender. I like his potential. His problem right now is he's never going to reach his potential out there playing in the shadow of Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, Harrington and eventually Patrick O'Bryant. He needs a team that's going to bring him in to be a main cog - by that I mean a first or second option. Only then will this kid really start to shine. But I'm telling you, the whole package is there.
And Biedrins is the big man we've been looking for to team up with Curry. He's young (born in 1986 - 3 yrs. younger than Lee), bigger than Lee (6'11" - 7'0", 240 lb.), runs the court, rebounds well and blocks shots at a high clip (something Lee and Frye don't do). His game is exactly what we need out of a C/PF - a big, rugged dude that rebounds and defends. And the offense will come. I like the fact that he gets almost all of his points in close off tip-ins and put-backs or from running the floor and filling the lane. Doesn't have to have his # called in order to be effective like Curry. Perfect guy to play alongside Curry. The one glaring thing with Biedrins so far is that he looks to be a little foul prone (he's leading the league with a whopping 205 personal fouls). But he's young and still learning the game. That's more than correctable especially when you consider that the Knick coaching staff has gotten Eddy Curry to cut his fouls down this year, specifically the offensive fouls. That's a big tribute to Mark Aguirre and there's no doubt he could do the same with Biedrins.
For the Warriors, you would think that Mullin and Nellie would be interested in our young guys. From a Warriors point of view, this is how I look at the incoming talent in a deal with Knicks:
Frye - Nellie loves offensive talent. He'd be drooling to get his hands on a guy like Frye. If there's one thing Frye can do well it's shoot the ball from anywhere. If there's any coach in the league that can maximize Frye's already potent offensive abilities, it's Don Nelson. And Frye's a good kid - he'd do whatever Nellie told him to do because he knows he'd be better off in the long run because of it. Plus, Frye's young and can run the court. I really think Frye is a center and we've be using him the wrong way ever since we got him to be honest. Look for him to play some center out there for them up until O'Bryant is ready to seize the role full-time. Then he makes for one of the best backup centers in the league if and when O'Bryant becomes a star - and that's all assuming Nellie doesn't wind up turning Frye into an all-star himself. Don't count that out. Plus his size at 6'11" make the loss of Biedrins a little easier.
Lee - Nellie would love Lee out there. Under Nelson, I could see Lee handling the ball more and I could see Nellie running stuff through Lee much like he did with Anthony Mason in his short stint with us. Remember that? Nellie loved Mason. Thing is Lee's better than Mason. He may not be as strong, but he's taller, can handle it as good as Mase could, is just as good if not a better passer than Mase, and could potentially have a better overall offensive game than Mase (he's got as better jumper with more range and has made himself into a dependable foul shooter). Under Nelson Lee could be a 15 pt./11 reb./7 assist a night guy for them. Easily. Maybe even more.
Nate - Right now he looks a little similar to Monta Ellis, but if used properly he could be so much more than that. He can run and Nellie wants to run first and foremost. Again, not to sound like a broken record, but under Nellie Nate could become something really specially. With freedom to play his game, picture a much more potent version of Earl Boykins. Don't ya think Nellie and Mullin would love the excitement Nate would bring to that rather dull crowd out there in the Bay Area every night?
Balkman - Nellie loves uptempo ball and in order to start fast breaks, you still need defenders and rebounders and this kid could be one of the leagues best ignitors if ever given any PT. How much would Nellie love see Balk rip a rebound down or block a shot on the perimeter, push the ball up himself and either finish with a thunderous dunk or feed someone else for two? Another low-risk/high-reward player that could make home games very exciting out there for them. His type of hustle is rare and would help fill the seats. The type of guy that would make Mullin look like a genius for including him in the deal.
Collins - Hasn't gotten a chance to do much of anything for us so we're all not sure exactly what he is exactly. But if you go back to his Temple days under Don Chaney, Collins was a big long PG who ran the offense, got people involved and played absolutely great defense. You don't think they could use someone like that. I'm sure Mullin would love to get this kid back in a trade to develop. Plus, we've seen that if Baron goes down, even with all the offensive talent they have, they're in trouble. We've seen that right before the break. I know they blew us out but before that they lost a home game to the lowly Atlanta Hawks. I saw most of that game, and you can chalk that loss up to not having a real playmaker out on the court for that entire game. Collins would be a nice PG with some unique attributes to develop to play behind Baron Davis.
Well there's my case for a fair trade between Isiah and Mullin. Trading with Golden State would be my first option to get something done - I like Pietrus and Biedrins that much. Only a couple of days left - can't wait to see what happens! 
Some interesting observations. I think you underestimate Ellis though - he's better than Nate by miles. Ellis is bigtime.
I'm not trying to underestimate Monta Ellis, believe me. I'm very impressed with what he's done for them out there. True, he's having a great season. He's really stepped it up, no question. But remember, by comparison, Ellis is getting about 35 mins. a night in GS to Nate's 18 a game here. Plus Nate is lucky if he even gets in games now-a-days as we've seen recently. Zeke really appears to have soured on him a little after the Denver fisaco. It's tough to compare the two this season with such a PT disparity but with all things equal I'd bet you'd see very similar #s if Nate got the same PT on a nightly basis as Monta Ellis. To me, they are very similar and bring a lot of the same things to the table. They're both scorers first and foremost. SGs trapped in PG bodies. They're both quick and can light it up. I actually think Nate might be a better 3-point shooter and FT shooter than Ellis and this kid's obviously bigger than Nate but very similar games.... Put it this way - say Nate was on the the Warriors, Richardson goes down 20-someodd games ago, Baron goes down and all of a sudden Nellie put Nate out there big minutes and gave him the greenlight to do whatever. What kind of numbers do you think Nate would be putting up for them? See what I mean. You could make a case that Nate might be able to do even more than this kid, who knows? Nate's a little on the immature side but the kid's got world-class ability for a man his size. Once Francis was brought on board developing Nate was kinda placed on the back burner.
I think you shouldn't focus too much on numbers. Ellis plays more minutes, sure, but he also shoots 48% from the field at 6-3 to get 17 ppg. And his percentage is just a hint of how good he is.
Ellis is consistently more explosive than Nate going to both his right and left. Whats even more impressive about Ellis, though, is the control on his drives, which is at a high all-star level and, in my opinion, just behind Wade and Bryant. To me Nate frequently seems to blindly barge into traffic while Ellis can beat defender after defender to get to the hoop. Ellis simply has more quality moves and the presence of mind to swiftly transition between them. He has a top-3 crossover in the league, he's practically unstopabble driving to his right, has a nice stutter dribble with both hands, splits double teams regularly, and can spin both right and left on a dime in traffic.
When he gets to the hoop, Ellis is a superior finisher with both hands, including quite a few Kobe-like reverse moves. While Nate can jump, his height doesn't allow him to do what Ellis can do in traffic. In other words, dunking on people left and right (including a ridiculous dunk on Barbosa this season that I'm sure will be on youtube). Check out that dunk.
The irony is that Ellis has earned his playing time this season with defense. He has lateral quickeness and fast hands that get him 1.4 steals a night. Many times, he's matched up with the opponent's go-to player over Pietrus. He forced turnovers on Kobe Bryant in overtime. Without the sensationalism that follows Nate, he's really only a full-court press defender that remains a major liability in the half-court. Ellis, on the other hand, seems like he will be able to guard very effectively in a few years.
So, numbers are only part of the comparison and , even then, Ellis's field-goal percentage is the most telling statistic. Both his current production and upside surpass Nate's not only because of height, but because he's more refined on both ends of the court.
I tell you what, that's excellent analysis on Ellis bro. I can't argue it at all. Good write-up on this kid. He's good. No question. You obviously see the kid play more than me and you have a good read on his game. However, just to be clear, my main point when comparing the two is that I think Nate and Monta are all too similar for the Warriors and Mullin to even be interested in aquiring Nate as part of this hypothetical deal. And that's tough for us considering Nate's one of the best trading chips we have at the moment. See what I mean? It'd be easier for us to include Nate in a package to some team that doesn't have anything like him already on their roster. But the trouble with this scenario is they do in Monta Ellis. Similar and possibly even superior as you suggest. Not to get off track with the whole Nate/Monta Ellis comparison, but I tell ya, and I really believe this (and I know you obviously don't think so Code and I respect that - you made a damn good argument in favor of Ellis over Nate), I really think Nate - if he ever got his head screwed on straight and really concentrated on becoming the best BASKETBALL PLAYER he could possibly be especially on defense where he could truly be a pest and make a difference, if used properly in the right situation and given ample playing time and the freedom to do whatever he needed to do out on the court to be sucessful - there's no reason, even with the height limitations, he couldn't be as good if not better than Ellis. He's as quick, if not quicker either dribbling up court or taking it to the basket, can dunk on people equally as impressive if not more so (I take your word for it that Ellis' dunk on Barbosa was spectacular but did you ever see little Nate dunk on someone? Especially when he played in college at Washington where he was getting regular minutes? Go youtube the dunk where he posterized Channing Frye when the Huskies played the Wildcats. Plus Nate was in the last two NBA dunk contests and won the damn thing last year). In addition, Nate's a better long-distance shooter and FT shooter. Remember, in the same draft Nate was taken with the 21st pick, Ellis with the 40th. Again, I respect your argument for Ellis I just feel Nate could be equally as impressive in his own way if ever given the same opportunity as Ellis. And he hasn't gotten that so far and probably wont as long as Steve Francis is healty and still here....
Regardless, going back to my "Andris Biedrins" post a few days prior - http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=20128 - my trade proposal with Golden State was always the following:
Frye + Lee + any combo. of Nate, Balkman, Mardy &/or Cato's expiring deal
FOR
Pietrus and Biedrins
The main thing here is WE KEEP CURRY and re-tool around him with this deal. Got to be honest, I never really considered aquiring Ellis as part of the package. We have so many guards already in place here and we'd kinda be aquiring yet another in the deal in Pietrus (though I'd want Pietrus to play a lot at the 3 for us). And by mentioning Nate earlier I was only trying to speculate what Mullin/Nelson might think of Nate if they had a chance to aquired him. Fact is, they probably wouldn't want Nate but if they did, I tried to give a reason why. That's all.
Fact of the matter is this is all academic anyway as we're starting to hear now that Isiah has no plans to shake up the roster by Thursday. And that's a shame because it's obviously a team that's still in need of some re-tooling. 
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2/20/2007 5:19 PM