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Would the Knicks have a better record if Herb Williams was coaching?
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NYKBocker
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2/13/2007  1:55 PM
Posted by PresIke:

But in order for the Pick and Roll to work you need your bigman to have a good outside jump shot. Ewing, Duncan and Malone all had it. Shaq & Curry do not, hence one of the reasons they are not typically the option at the end of games.

Not sure about that. Curry has shown this year that he can hit the 10-12 footers. He just needs to trust it. I think Curry is more than Shaq offensively. We compare Curry with Shaq because of his sheer size, but he has a little bit of David Robinson in him. His forays around the basket is a combo power and athleticism.
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Nalod
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2/13/2007  1:59 PM
If herb was the GM we'd be better.
misterearl
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2/13/2007  2:17 PM
If Bill Bradley was the owner we'd be better
once a knick always a knick
MS
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2/13/2007  2:18 PM
You guys are missing the point, Jamal holds onto the ball and always takes a terrible shot, which is the same as curry taking a horrible shot, but he has the chance to get fouled and its going to be 10 times better.....

And can we please stop making crawford out to be mr. clutch i bet he has hit 40% of the shots he has taken with the game on the line
misterearl
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2/13/2007  2:18 PM
If Gulf+Western didn't get stuck on acquiring used and aging parts we'd be better
once a knick always a knick
bitty41
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2/13/2007  2:26 PM
At the end of the game not necessarily the last shot situation but late fourth quarter and overtime Curry did not want the ball. Okur is no defensive animal but at the end of the game Curry had the guy looking like Dennis Rodman. Curry repeatedly allowed his defensive counter-part to step in front of him when the pass was being made into the post. Sure a great deal of blame lays at the guards feet but also some of of the blame rests at Curry's feet.

Getting to the orginal topic at hand. I completely understand what Trenttucker is trying to say. He's not saying that Herb is a great coach or even a better coach than Isiah but rather I think he is trying to make the point that pretty much anyone could get similar if not better results with the talent and depth on the team. Seriously if the Knicks had a coach that rolled the ball out on the court and said "do what feels natural" how much different would our record be.
BlueSeats
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2/13/2007  2:36 PM
Herb's record would be the same, Isiah would still be in the tunnel residing over his shoulder, Marbury would be whining, Frye and Nate would feel misunderstood, and Herb would be scapegoated and on very shaky ground.
PresIke
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2/13/2007  3:02 PM
Posted by NYKBocker:
Posted by PresIke:

But in order for the Pick and Roll to work you need your bigman to have a good outside jump shot. Ewing, Duncan and Malone all had it. Shaq & Curry do not, hence one of the reasons they are not typically the option at the end of games.

Not sure about that. Curry has shown this year that he can hit the 10-12 footers. He just needs to trust it. I think Curry is more than Shaq offensively. We compare Curry with Shaq because of his sheer size, but he has a little bit of David Robinson in him. His forays around the basket is a combo power and athleticism.

Hey, I really like Curry, but he is no where near the jump shooter those other players you listed are at this point. Lee has shown he can hit outside shots as well, but I wouldn't rely on him at the end of games with the ball in his hands either to create or score. Curry is a somewhat better shooter from 10-12 than Lee is, and has more offensive game, in general, but I don't think that he is consistent enough to be relied upon to create and score at the end of games due to this.

Shaq was also pretty athletic for his size, btw. Remember him running fast breaks sometimes? Comparing Curry and Shaq is quite valid, I think, because of how they get most of their points. Curry uses his size and strength more so than Robinson, and doesn't rely primarily on athletic ability as the Admiral did.

As for the use of the pick and roll. Are there any teams that consistently use it that do well and have relied on very inconsistent or mediocre jump shooters? Phoenix's offense relies heavily on their own pick and roll offense, and of course it works because pretty much the entire team is made up of guys that can hit the outside shot. Sure, guys may get a chance to take it to the hole off a pick and roll as well, but more often than not the teams that it works best for have great shooters or a great shooting big man that they tend to run it with.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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2/13/2007  3:11 PM
Posted by MS:

You guys are missing the point, Jamal holds onto the ball and always takes a terrible shot, which is the same as curry taking a horrible shot, but he has the chance to get fouled and its going to be 10 times better.....

And can we please stop making crawford out to be mr. clutch i bet he has hit 40% of the shots he has taken with the game on the line

So Crawford "always" takes a terrible shot? Hey, I'm critical of Jamal but that's rather overstating things a bit, no? The Knicks have tried to give Curry the ball at the end of some games (halves) and it has typically not worked well. Maybe since we don't watch the team practice it has been demonstrated that Crawford is more comfortable/consistent with the ball at the ends of games than Curry. Ever think about that? Crawford has taken bad shots at the end of games, but not always. And more than a few times they have managed to go in. I'm not in love with Craw in end of game situations because I am also concerned with his propensity to take poor shots, but maybe he's the best we have at it for now until someone else proves otherwise.

In other words, it's not necessarily Isiah's fault as coach that Crawford is the best player we have at the ends of games. As a GM, that's a different question, but I'm not freaking out about it because I'm not pushing the panic button about this team on a daily basis as some of us do here, apparently. I'm waiting to see how the team fares the rest of the season and what occurrs over the next few years, whoever may be in charge. I see growth, growing pains, and some possible risks that may not pan out, but is it enough to make me rail on every possible negative regarding Isiah and the lightning rod players every day? No, but I suppose that puts me in the minority on this forum.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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2/13/2007  3:18 PM
And to support to my own comments about why Craword gets the ball at the end, this is a quote posted by nyk4ever that Mike Breen said today on Mike & The Maddog.
Posted by nyk4ever:

-Reasons for Crawford always getting the ball in clutch: he wants the ball more than anyone else, also he's been successful.

http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=20037

That's pretty much exactly what I just said.



[Edited by - PresIke on 02-13-2007 3:18 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
misterearl
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2/13/2007  4:28 PM
TrentTucker - of COURSE you enjoy piling on. It's okay to admit it.

But how do you know what expectatations are placed on the people who count most, the PLAYERS, if you're not in the huddle or at practice?

Man, I'm talkin' 'bout practice

once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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2/13/2007  4:29 PM
You only know what lies Isiah tells to the press to fulfill his responsibility for a quota of quotes

It ain't that deep

why some place so much stock in second-hand drivel is beyond me
once a knick always a knick
TrentTuckerFan
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2/13/2007  4:56 PM
Posted by misterearl:

You only know what lies Isiah tells to the press to fulfill his responsibility for a quota of quotes

It ain't that deep

why some place so much stock in second-hand drivel is beyond me

Misterearl - If a coaches comments to the media were just “second-hand drivel,” then Larry Brown might still be coaching this team.
One of the main problems last season was the war between LB and Steph thru the press. To think the players don’t read and/or hear about the coaches comments is illogical.

Also – Dolan and the Knicks used LB’s comments to the press against him in the hearing
with Stern. They ended up coasting LB a lot of money.

I would like to hope that Zeke says something completely different to his players inside the huddle, but with IT is it ever safe to assume?
misterearl
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2/13/2007  5:08 PM
TrentTucker - Larry Brown is not coaching the Knicks because of what he said to the media

He is not coaching because he lost the respect of his players

In practice

forget what is said in the press

once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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2/13/2007  5:10 PM
>>I would like to hope that Zeke says something completely different to his players inside the huddle, but with IT is it ever safe to assume?

You're right TT - with Isiah you better lock your doors and watch your daughters too

once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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2/13/2007  5:14 PM
Watching the Knicks go through the motions last season was clear evidence there was no spirit or competitive fire

A good coach inspires

A good coach builds on what a player brings to the table and makes him better in the context of a team

A good coach has players ready to stand up for each other if some ish starts

A good coach knows when to get a technical foul

A good coach can navigate the tough times without his team falling apart

He, and they, are resilient

but hey, that's just me

how do YOU define a good coach?
once a knick always a knick
TrentTuckerFan
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2/13/2007  5:16 PM
Posted by misterearl:

TrentTucker - of COURSE you enjoy piling on. It's okay to admit it.

But how do you know what expectatations are placed on the people who count most, the PLAYERS, if you're not in the huddle or at practice?

Man, I'm talkin' 'bout practice

As for piling on – I actually don’t enjoy killing Isiah as a coach b/c I don’t honestly believe he done a terrible job.

I certainly disagree with those who claim that he has shown “significant progress,” but he has not been a terrible coach. I would say he has done an average job this season. Maybe give him a “C.”

Back to my original point, take an coach from the NBDL or NBA assistant, I have a hard time being convinced that they Knicks would have a worse winning percentage than they do right now.

In fact, Isiah looks “good” because the team (in large part as a result of his actions as a GM) has been so bad.

As far as his performance as GM is concerned, I have no problem “piling on.” His track is horrendous. No need to go into details here. We are all well aware of the carnage.
misterearl
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2/13/2007  5:31 PM
He has not been a terrible coach

Sheesh

and what "carnage" are you speaking of?

do you really miss Van Horn that much?

once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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2/13/2007  5:32 PM
>>In fact, Isiah looks “good” because the team (in large part as a result of his actions as a GM) has been so bad.

TT - what former players from 2003 do you wish the Knicks had back?
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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2/13/2007  5:36 PM
Let's not get confused TT

The Knicks looked bad because of a decade of poor decision-making that started with signing Patrick to a $68M deal on his last legs

you could look it up

the ship is just now showing signs of slowly coming to the surface
once a knick always a knick
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